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'New Zealand wants you': the problem with tech at the edge of the world

theguardian.com

81–90 of 124 posts

Re: 'New Zealand wants you': the problem with tech at the edge of the world

#81
I left New Zealand for Australia about 9 months ago, and have no plans on moving back to NZ for at least half a decade.

I love New Zealand and I think it's an amazing country. I really miss it, and if I ever had kids, I'd want to raise them in NZ.

But the money and the jobs just aren't there.

I doubled my wages by moving to Melbourne from Wellington and cost of living is roughly the same. It took me 2 weeks from when I started looking for a job to getting an offer. My salary went from NZ$42k + 3% super and no bonus to AU$75k (NZ$80k) + 9.5% super + bonus. I'm sure I could've landed a better paying job here too, but I was living off my credit card so I took the first job that gave me an offer.

In New Zealand there just weren't many options for someone with 2 years of experience. There's a chronic shortage of senior positions, but for mid level positions, especially if you don't want to work with .NET or Java, there just aren't jobs available. There were about 5 open positions nationwide for a Ruby on Rails dev with 2 or 3 years experience when I was looking to move on from my job, before deciding to jump ship to Australia. In Melbourne, there were so many positions I was qualified for that I didn't even bother applying for most of them. I had recruiters ringing me every morning with new positions that I was perfectly suited for.

If you're trying to start a company, don't expect a lot of investment. Most startups in NZ bootstrap or get investment from family and friends. There just isn't a culture of venture capital in NZ. It seems like a very normal trajectory for an NZ tech startup is to get enough funding and growth that they can migrate to California. Xero is quite unique in that it stayed in NZ, although it's now listed on the Australian Stock Exchange. The lack of investment in startups is a cultural thing I think, and ties right in with tall poppy syndrome: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome. Our humility is both a source of national pride and also something that holds us back as a country. Of course, not everyone wants to start a unicorn, and that's fine, but someone needs to.

It does lead to a very different startup culture. There isn't that rapid growth in companies that you see in the USA, because there's less investment. The startup I worked for had been around for 3 or 4 years and only had 8 employees, the lack of manpower (especially developers) really held the company back. The business idea was solid, we made decent sales, but we were severely undercapitalised. Most startups, due to the investment situation are one or two person shops.

The tech startup scene is weird too, at least in Wellington, as it's so small. It's like this little incestuous community, full of gossip about different people and companies. I actually found it got quite catty at times.

It's a crying shame that I felt I had to leave (although money was only part of the reason), but like fuck I'm going to work for $20 an hour when I can jump on a plane and 4 hours later be earning double. NZ is a beautiful country let down by a low wage economy.

Re: 'New Zealand wants you': the problem with tech at the edge of the world

#82

I’m in NZ, and involved in the startup community down here. Great people, great vibe. There’s a long history of Innovation down here at the bottom of the planet. The best example is David Downs book “#8 Rewired” which gives examples of great NZ Innovations such as: Disposable hypodermic syringe Manned flight(disputed) Jet boat Nanotube Freeze dried coffee(sorry) DNA discovery Splitting the atom(Rutherford) DNA double…

We've got rocketlabs, does that count? It's not homegrown but it's based in nz. Also flying taxis, lol

Rocketlab is homegrown, it's just owned by Americans now.

All the design and most of the build (except the engine, due to American rules) is done in NZ.

Re: 'New Zealand wants you': the problem with tech at the edge of the world

#83
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is lame though to be fair to NZ I've come across similar requirements in other countries too. Over the years I've happened to be invited to discussions with policy makers in both The Netherlands (2013) and Australia (2016) and as far as I know they came up with similar policies. Further back I recall taking a look at Germany (~2012) and it was also onerous. The main takeaway I had was that constructing a set of…

For what it's worth, it's relatively simple for an American to open a business and gain residency in the Netherlands through the Dutch-American Friendship Treaty.

But unless things have changed considerably in the last 5 years, that American will suffer greatly at the hands of the American tax system, which treats any American owned and managed asset outside the US as a tax evasion scheme.

Re: 'New Zealand wants you': the problem with tech at the edge of the world

#84

They have a really odd way to attract tech talent.... I exited my startup in the uk two years ago, successfully, leaving a successful and growing technology business behind. I have several ideas which I am prepared to self-fund up to £0.5M, and want a good environment in which to start a new business. I know coders in NZ, and they’re a talented bunch, we began to hatch a plan. In short, the NZ gov’t don’t want it. Th…

Is this the "Entrepreneur Work Visa"? Because reading online suggests that you would qualify. Of course when it comes to visas it is often hard to know how things actually work without talking to an immigration lawyer or similar.

Re: 'New Zealand wants you': the problem with tech at the edge of the world

#85
post #77
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't New Zealand hugely underpopulated? I fear that their real problem is elsewhere... Just checked quickly: * the UK: 65 million people, 242 000 sqkm -> crowded * Romania: 19 million people, 238 000 sqkm -> not that crowded * New Zealand: 4.8 million people, 268 000 sqkm -> it's definitely not overpopulated... Edit: Heh, I also checked the density, it's the 203rd country in the world regarding population density. T…

I don't think people per sqkm is the most relevant metric of overpopulation, it's more like people per available resources.

New Zealand is famous for being very resource rich, so I'm not sure I share your concern. NZ is an exporter for many of its resources: http://www.mbie.govt.nz/info-services/sectors-industries/nat...

Re: 'New Zealand wants you': the problem with tech at the edge of the world

#86
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't New Zealand hugely underpopulated? I fear that their real problem is elsewhere... Just checked quickly: * the UK: 65 million people, 242 000 sqkm -> crowded * Romania: 19 million people, 238 000 sqkm -> not that crowded * New Zealand: 4.8 million people, 268 000 sqkm -> it's definitely not overpopulated... Edit: Heh, I also checked the density, it's the 203rd country in the world regarding population density. T…

It's not a population density problem but a housing supply problem. There just simply aren't enough houses in NZ. Simply finding somewhere to live can be a struggle, let alone somewhere affordable.

So it's artificial scarcity, basically. Someone/something is blocking development, right?

Re: 'New Zealand wants you': the problem with tech at the edge of the world

#87

I work out of a very small studio in Auckland mostly building ecom (cofounder/dev). The reality is NZ is such a tiny market that is has a really funny quality to it (and some really odd stuff in places like an unspoken pay invoices on the 20th of the month rule). Two degrees of separation is the running joke here because just about anyone you hear about has met someone you know. We are doing an increasing amount of o…

> Two degrees of separation is the running joke Funny you should say that, the Jrump devs are friends of a friend of mine. To add to your comment, after several years of going to a regional conference I've got to know so many of the crowd from working with them directly that I struggle to make it around the trade stands. One of the consequences of this is you can't burn bridges as word will get around (like in a vill…

I'd understand if it's actually something that is locally made but it's pretty annoying when a place like Brazil charges 100% markup tax on something like a video game console, video card, or what not.

It surely makes it difficult for locals to afford computers.

Re: 'New Zealand wants you': the problem with tech at the edge of the world

#88
post #84

They have a really odd way to attract tech talent.... I exited my startup in the uk two years ago, successfully, leaving a successful and growing technology business behind. I have several ideas which I am prepared to self-fund up to £0.5M, and want a good environment in which to start a new business. I know coders in NZ, and they’re a talented bunch, we began to hatch a plan. In short, the NZ gov’t don’t want it. Th…

Is this the "Entrepreneur Work Visa"? Because reading online suggests that you would qualify. Of course when it comes to visas it is often hard to know how things actually work without talking to an immigration lawyer or similar.

Yes, it is, and I thought so too from the info available online - but the reality is rather different. I had a hard line of £10k to spend on exploring immigration exploration there including paying a lawyer - and when that money was gone with no progress, I cut my losses.

As to where instead, others have suggested Portugal, Romania, Poland - Portugal is nice, but get talking to locals and there’s a problem with corruption around business ownership and ensuing audits, etc., Romania has a really big corruption problem, and there’s not much happening outside of Cluj and Bucharest, and Poland has the same kind of politics that I’m hoping to leave behind in the UK. Natural beauty and quality of life were big pluses for NZ.

I’ve also explored Latin America to little avail (the ground situation is rather different to the paper one - huge black markets in Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, brewing social unrest), and am now looking seriously at Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania- although again, all three are hardening their stance against non-EU migrants, which I will be come March next, and have similar nationalist movements to elsewhere.

Re: 'New Zealand wants you': the problem with tech at the edge of the world

#89

I'm trying to get a job in New Zealand right now. In 2012 I was there on Working Holiday, and did a summer job writing control systems code for Fisher & Paykel Healthcare in Auckland. By 2014 I'd visited a few more countries and shortlisted destinations: New Zealand (Skilled Migrant Category), Canada (Express Entry), or Australia (subclass 186). Now I'm trying to apply, but most listings on Seek require already havin…

Mentioning your citizenship might help, certain countries look for certain groups (e.g. they have a satellite team in ___ where you speak the language, bonus!).

It's really complicated to explain where I'm from. My passport is British. I was born in Switzerland. My parents live in France. (My dad worked at CERN, if you've been to Geneva you'll understand).

I went to university in the UK, exchange programme in Santa Barbara. I did summer jobs in LA, Switzerland, Taipei, Vancouver, Auckland, Korea, China, and India. I decided I like NZ and Canada the most. I need 3 years prior continuous relevant work experience to get the visa. So I came back to Taiwan to do that. Now I have the academic and work qualifications needed.

I really want to stay and settle down. I don't have a "home" to go back to. If I live with my parents, I'm unable to marry or have kids. Those kids would be stateless because I'm a citizen by descent and can't pass on citizenship. NZ's Skilled Migrant Category can get me Permanent Resident status in 2 years (the fastest). That's my plan, but I need a job to help me do that.

Re: 'New Zealand wants you': the problem with tech at the edge of the world

#90

Shit salaries, overpriced housing, and everything is expensive. Seriously, if you're American name me the last thing you just purchased and I can guarantee it will be at least 25% more expensive here, sometimes double. If you're an American you'd be crazy to come here unless you've already made your money.

> Shit salaries, overpriced housing, and everything is expensive

You're not kidding. A decade ago I looked at buying Autodesk Maya. It was $US3999 if I were in the US, so how much was it from the local reseller in NZ? $NZ13,000, just because it could be. At the time, that was enough to make a deposit on a house. A group of us started calling it "the New Zealand tax," because we noticed that almost every price for an imported good was 2.5x what it would cost to purchase, ship from another country, and pay tax - often more. HDMI cables were $40, and my friend from Dick Smith (roughly equivalent to Fry's) told me they bought them for $5.

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