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John Oliver is erased from Chinese internet following segment on China

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Re: John Oliver is erased from Chinese internet following segment on China

#121

Post by icebraining »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #112
coliveira wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

George Orwell was against all kinds of authoritarianism. A large portion of the left has always disavowed authoritarianism as well, so there is no conflict here.

'George Orwell' is a fictional character. Real name: 'Eric Blair' who went to Church every Sunday, though I think he was kind of an Atheist. Not the same dude as Orwell. He had complicated views, and was not a 'socialist' in the more popular sense. Remember in 1984 that the 'bad guys' ideology is 'IngSoc', i.e. 'English Socialism'. So not exactly a big Social Dem supporter of the era.

A pen name is not the same as a fictional character. And the point of IngSoc is that it rejects socialist principles, while doing so in the same of Socialism - much like many socialists viewed the Bolsheviks and/or the Stalinists.

I don't think this is complicated; in-fighting amongst left-wing/socialist groups is a staple ever since the term was coined. Socialism never had a single main ideology.

Re: John Oliver is erased from Chinese internet following segment on China

#122

Post by jrs95 »

jrs95 wrote: post #102
amerine wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I squint and ignore the fact that personalities like Oliver have been doing their ideological-driven (rightly so IMO) comedy perspective bits for years I can see how how you could naively call that “propaganda”. However, the logical side of me can’t fathom how the reported events are anything remotely “propaganda”. They are legitimate things that free-press nations can discuss how they like, including laughing at…

I completely agree except for the part about what John Oliver does being comedy. It's just not funny. IMO this whole genre has devolved into being mostly not actually comedy anymore. Stewart and Colbert were both hilarious, but I feel like that was a primary goal of their content. Now it seems like it's gone from comedic and satirical opiniomated news/talk show to just a comedian doing an opinionated news/talk show.

> opioniomated

Welp. Wish I saw that one while edit was still an option.

Re: John Oliver is erased from Chinese internet following segment on China

#125

Post by simonh »

alazoral wrote: post #101
simonh wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s no law of the universe about this, other than the sun exploding and heat death. One of the plausible catastrophic end states for humanity is an ultra-stable technocratic totalitarian global state, enabled by pervasive super high tech surveillance and censorship. It’s one of the ‘great filter’ possibilities for why sentient beings never colonise the galaxy - they’re all trapped in bureaucratic self serving ver…

I would disagree with your assertion there that bureaucracies are terminal. Historically, military dictatorships tend to overthrow bureaucracies, while democracies overthrow military dictatorships and bureaucracies subsume democracies. Each of these transitions can be understood thermodynamically; each transition results in a lower energy state for the problems facing them at the time: Bureaucracies lack military res…

I think that's arguable, but anyway a global totalitarian state with 100% communications channel surveillance linked to super-advanced AI analysis engines doesn't need a military. All they need is a detention force to send anyone with seditious tendencies or too low on their Citizenship Points[1] for organ harvesting[2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go...

Re: John Oliver is erased from Chinese internet following segment on China

#126

Post by 394549 »

slededit wrote: post #96
394549 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's misleading if you omit facts which run contrary to your narrative. I have no idea if this is the case in the China episode, but he has done this previously Even though I don't know you, I'm sure at some point you've omitted some fact that was contrary to your option or some narrative you were expressing (because literally everyone has). Does that make you a propagandist and everything you write propaganda? Oli…

>Even though I don't know you, I'm sure at some point you've omitted some fact that was contrary to your option or some narrative you were expressing (because literally everyone has). Does that make you a propagandist and everything you write propaganda? Do you not think the standard should be higher for someone on national TV with an audience of millions?

> Do you not think the standard should be higher for someone on national TV with an audience of millions?

Yes, but he should not be held an impossibly high or unreasonable standard, which I believe is what EpicEng is doing. Bear in mind that he's made no specific claims in this thread that Oliver has made misleading omissions, just vague, unsupported accusations.

John Oliver is a comedian. He should strive to be as accurate and complete as that format allows, and I think he satisfies that standard. That entails leaving some things on the cutting room floor in the name of focus, clarity, brevity, and rhetorical impact. This is something we all do because it's required to communicate effectively. He can't reasonably be expected to create ponderously long segments that cover every point and counterpoint that someone from the internet peanut gallery may care to see. This means he's a man expressing an opinion humorously, not a "propagandist."

Re: John Oliver is erased from Chinese internet following segment on China

#127

Post by EpicEng »

394549 wrote: post #85
EpicEng wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure that's fair. He's been guilty of this part though: >...often by presenting facts selectively to encourage a particular synthesis or perception, or using loaded language to produce an emotional rather than a rational response to the information that is presented. And honestly, what major news outlet today _isn't_? Is that not a huge problem with "mainstream media" (I hate that term) currently? So... still not sur…

You seem to be arguing exclusively from simple textual definitions of the term "propaganda" from the dictionary and Wikipedia. I don't think that's a fruitful approach because it fails to account for the nuances in meaning between different words and the contrasts and distinctions that those different terms are used to illustrate. I think Oliver's segment is more accurately classified as an op-ed piece with some sati…

I agree. I started with the definition and, honestly, I had no idea it was so broad. In reality most would not consider this stuff propaganda until it crosses over into seriously misleading territory.

Re: John Oliver is erased from Chinese internet following segment on China

#128

Post by novaleaf »

mikedilger wrote: post #111
jen729w wrote: post #14

Does it count as ironic that I can’t watch the segment here in Australia because “the uploader has not made this available in your country”?

In NZ it says "this video is not available" but plenty of other Last Week Tonight videos are. Was this one singled out?

same with Canada. it also doesn't show any comments. almost looks censored compared to the usa view.

Re: John Oliver is erased from Chinese internet following segment on China

#129

Post by stcredzero »

icebraining wrote: post #121
sonnyblarney wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'George Orwell' is a fictional character. Real name: 'Eric Blair' who went to Church every Sunday, though I think he was kind of an Atheist. Not the same dude as Orwell. He had complicated views, and was not a 'socialist' in the more popular sense. Remember in 1984 that the 'bad guys' ideology is 'IngSoc', i.e. 'English Socialism'. So not exactly a big Social Dem supporter of the era.

A pen name is not the same as a fictional character. And the point of IngSoc is that it rejects socialist principles, while doing so in the same of Socialism - much like many socialists viewed the Bolsheviks and/or the Stalinists. I don't think this is complicated; in-fighting amongst left-wing/socialist groups is a staple ever since the term was coined. Socialism never had a single main ideology.

Socialism never had a single main ideology.

If you go by person-years of ruled population, Socialism does have a predominant type of regime, which generally branded itself as "Marxist," was mostly totalitarian, and accounted for about 100 million deaths in the past century.

Re: John Oliver is erased from Chinese internet following segment on China

#130

Post by stcredzero »

mikeash wrote: post #31
Daishiman wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it was an observation against authoritarianism. You do know that Orwell was, above all, anti-fascist and anti-Stalinist right?

Lots of people don’t seem to understand that it’s possible to be both socialist and anti-Stalinist.

However, the only socialist countries that survive without devolving into totalitarianism seem to do so because they allow for a burgeoning capitalist economy.
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