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Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

theguardian.com

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Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#21

Post by belorn »

dingaling wrote: post #9
simion314 wrote: post #6

A tax seems the fair solution, if it costs X to dispose of a plastic bottle then tax X each bottle, use the money to dispose of the bottle, adjust X if costs change.

But such a tax gives no incentive for companies to change their packaging. The tax is paid by the customer who usually has few or no options. For example in the UK plastic one-litre milk pitcher bottles are ubiquitous. Even the few remaining door-to-door milkmen deliver them, instead of the old one-pint reusable glass bottles. I simply can't buy fresh milk in anything else and i have a recycling bin full of them. Rev…

The most common milk packaging here in Sweden is plastic-coated paper carton. Wonder how that fits with the mumbai law, and how it compare to reusable glass bottles.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#22

Post by simula67 »

simion314 wrote: post #6

A tax seems the fair solution, if it costs X to dispose of a plastic bottle then tax X each bottle, use the money to dispose of the bottle, adjust X if costs change.

In Bangalore, supermarkets used to give away plastic bags for free. Then a law got passed requiring shops to charge for plastic bags. People, however, just kept paying the price for plastic bags and disposing them once they were done with them. Now there is a ban on plastic [1] and people seems to be carrying their own bags into supermarkets and reusing them.

But your solution would have been better. It would have given people more flexibility

[1] https://www.thebetterindia.com/48844/plastic-ban-bangalore-k...

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#23

Post by ocfnash »

dingaling wrote: post #9
simion314 wrote: post #6

A tax seems the fair solution, if it costs X to dispose of a plastic bottle then tax X each bottle, use the money to dispose of the bottle, adjust X if costs change.

But such a tax gives no incentive for companies to change their packaging. The tax is paid by the customer who usually has few or no options. For example in the UK plastic one-litre milk pitcher bottles are ubiquitous. Even the few remaining door-to-door milkmen deliver them, instead of the old one-pint reusable glass bottles. I simply can't buy fresh milk in anything else and i have a recycling bin full of them. Rev…

In Ireland, we introduced a tax on plastic bags in 2002 and it had an enormous impact. (Actually we called it a levy: Irish governments never introduce new taxes, but love to introduce new levies!)

One detail works in its favour surprisingly well: once you've paid, the vendor cannot give you a plastic bag. A new transaction must take place as part of every sale "would you like a plastic bag?" and this turned out to apply a substantial friction on their distribution.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#24

Post by cup »

simula67 wrote: post #22
simion314 wrote: post #6

A tax seems the fair solution, if it costs X to dispose of a plastic bottle then tax X each bottle, use the money to dispose of the bottle, adjust X if costs change.

In Bangalore, supermarkets used to give away plastic bags for free. Then a law got passed requiring shops to charge for plastic bags. People, however, just kept paying the price for plastic bags and disposing them once they were done with them. Now there is a ban on plastic [1] and people seems to be carrying their own bags into supermarkets and reusing them. But your solution would have been better. It would have gi…

More flexibility to litter?

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#25

Post by andrewstuart »

Thank goodness somewhere is taking the obvious action of banning the packaging, which is really just pre-garbage.

However, banning packaging only works if it is backed by a system for precisely standardised, refundable and washable containers that food and other products can be shipped in.

You can't just say "no packaging". We need a MUCH better form of packaging than disposable/recyclable because recycling only works a little bit to solve the problem of packaging turning into garbage. That better form is re-usable standardised containers.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#26

Post by DougBTX »

jstanley wrote: post #18
dingaling wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But such a tax gives no incentive for companies to change their packaging. The tax is paid by the customer who usually has few or no options. For example in the UK plastic one-litre milk pitcher bottles are ubiquitous. Even the few remaining door-to-door milkmen deliver them, instead of the old one-pint reusable glass bottles. I simply can't buy fresh milk in anything else and i have a recycling bin full of them. Rev…

> Reverting to glass would add weight, breakages and collection costs So how exactly is glass superior to plastic in this application? Seems to me that they moved to plastic because plastic is the better material for the job.

Need to ask not just which is better, but which is better for who?

With glass, producing new bottles for each delivery would be super expensive, so it is in their interest to bear the cost of collecting the bottles for reuse and recycling.

With plastic, producing new containers is super cheap, so it is fine to continuously produce new ones, but the waste is still produced, so the customers and their local government must bear the cost of waste disposal or recycling instead.

Essentially, moving from glass to plastic is good for the producers, as they no-longer need to care how much it costs to recycle, since they don't do it any more. But the overall cost to society might be higher, depending exactly on what the recycling costs are.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#27

Post by mrob »

simula67 wrote: post #22
simion314 wrote: post #6

A tax seems the fair solution, if it costs X to dispose of a plastic bottle then tax X each bottle, use the money to dispose of the bottle, adjust X if costs change.

In Bangalore, supermarkets used to give away plastic bags for free. Then a law got passed requiring shops to charge for plastic bags. People, however, just kept paying the price for plastic bags and disposing them once they were done with them. Now there is a ban on plastic [1] and people seems to be carrying their own bags into supermarkets and reusing them. But your solution would have been better. It would have gi…

Here in the UK a law was passed requiring shops to charge 0.05GBP for each plastic bag, and it successfully reduced the number of bags used:

"Our data indicates that the 7 main retailers issued around 83% fewer bags (over 6 billion bags fewer) in 2016 to 2017 compared to the calendar year 2014"

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/carrier-bag-charg...

The bags are called "single-use", but the shops also changed the bags to use thicker plastic (maybe so people feel they're getting their money's worth), and now they are much better for re-use too.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#28

Post by social_quotient »

mrob wrote: post #20
dingaling wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But such a tax gives no incentive for companies to change their packaging. The tax is paid by the customer who usually has few or no options. For example in the UK plastic one-litre milk pitcher bottles are ubiquitous. Even the few remaining door-to-door milkmen deliver them, instead of the old one-pint reusable glass bottles. I simply can't buy fresh milk in anything else and i have a recycling bin full of them. Rev…

If they have no incentive to change then the tax is too low. A tax that's sufficiently high to offset all the externalities is better than a ban because it gives people more flexibility. If somebody is unusually harmed by a ban they might choose to pay the tax even if it's high. And tax is fungible, so the money can be used to prevent other sources of environmental damage, and the overall outcome is better than if it…

Thanks for making this point. I feel like most taxes miss the point of externalities. Taxes used to dissuade an activity should be high enough to matter. I tend to not trust low tax amounts on policies meant to lessen an activity. They “look good” but often they just become a hidden money maker for something else not really designed to make a difference.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#29

Post by zelos »

belorn wrote: post #21
dingaling wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But such a tax gives no incentive for companies to change their packaging. The tax is paid by the customer who usually has few or no options. For example in the UK plastic one-litre milk pitcher bottles are ubiquitous. Even the few remaining door-to-door milkmen deliver them, instead of the old one-pint reusable glass bottles. I simply can't buy fresh milk in anything else and i have a recycling bin full of them. Rev…

The most common milk packaging here in Sweden is plastic-coated paper carton. Wonder how that fits with the mumbai law, and how it compare to reusable glass bottles.

Aren't combinations of materials generally harder to recycle? Presumably you have to split the plastic from the paper and recycle each separately?

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#30

Post by [deleted] »

wetpaws wrote: post #14
ohnoesmyscv wrote: post #2

When will US cities do the same? Most restaurants offer plastic togo containers, which ends up in the landfill. Some restaurants even use plastic bowls and plates for dine-in customers, arguably so they don’t have to invest in equipment and labor to wash dishes. With The China recycling ban, this becomes more of a pressing issue. I’m surprised cities aren’t outright banning or imposing a tax on the use of plastics at…

California does this to a certain degree.

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