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The Last of the Tiger Parents

nytimes.com

51–60 of 88 posts

Re: The Last of the Tiger Parents

#51
post #9

Offtopic but do most HN'ers have NYT subscriptions or use extensions to workaround the paywalls? Anyone else wish they could filter out paywalled links from HN?

I couldn't be more thankful that they finally had an effective paywall. Increasingly their content falls in the "guilty pleasure reading" territory for me - entertaining, addictive but not ultimately nourishing. (Now if only Reddit would go subscription only!) I also doubt the sincerity of much of the writing and wonder about the extent to which it's shaped by considerations along the lines of "let's deliberately state this point just a little less defensibly to make it more likely that the readers get worked up enough to respond".

Re: The Last of the Tiger Parents

#52
post #47
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a counterpoint, I would like to say that a lot of research still is 'routine intellectual work'. Movers and shakers are rare and far apart. The vast majority of academia are collectively and slowly boiling over problems, rather than taking bold and independent strives.

> As a counterpoint, I would like to say that a lot of research still is 'routine intellectual work'. Movers and shakers are rare and far apart. While this is very true, the "movers and shakers" are the ones who set the standard of a research culture. Frankly, that's why the US has a major research advantage over most (probably all) countries that strongly embrace tiger parenting.

The US has a major advantage over all countries. And Japan has an advantage over the vast majority of countries. The reason for that is probably how developed their economies are.

Re: The Last of the Tiger Parents

#53
post #35

> When I became a parent, I felt the wonder and uncertainty that accompany the awesome responsibility of fatherhood. But I was absolutely sure of one thing: The childhood I devise for my two young daughters will look nothing like mine. They will feel valued and supported. They will know home as a place of joy and fun. They will never wonder whether their father’s love is conditioned on an unblemished report card. I w…

> As my Asian immigrant parents understood: money is really important. It matters so much that financial stress is a leading cause of divorce

Which is the cause and which is the effect? Financial stress may be a leading cause of divorce because money’s importance is so heavily emphasized.

Re: The Last of the Tiger Parents

#54
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you seem to have claimed that people immigrating from Asia move to NYC because it's cheap but at the same time you claim it's cheap because they are willing to live umpteen to a room, vs. literally any other city in the country where it's a fraction of the price per sq ft. I am claiming that if one of the most populous cities in the country/world sees a high degree of poverty in a demographic it might be because that…

No. I'm saying they move there because of the existing communities in place, and they live in cramped condtions in order to afford it. >I am claiming that if one of the most populous cities in the country/world sees a high degree of poverty in a demographic it might be because that demographic has a high degree of poverty. You could actually look at the overall numbers though instead of extrapolating from a non-rando…

and why should we believe that "living in NYC" should select for "under achieving children" or "not tiger moms"?

also why is "Asian countries poorer than the US" so easily dismiss-able for purposes of parenting when almost all "Asian Countries" are poorer than the US?

Re: The Last of the Tiger Parents

#55

From my experience, Tiger Parenting is a very effective way of propelling people through standardized testing and competitive exams/admissions. I think it tends to stop working once there is not a clearly delineated pathway to achievement - for example in independent research. It's absurd to think that no-one who came up with a Tiger Parent philosophy won't be a good researcher or independently creative, but there do…

I think this is a little unfair. Tiger parenting is never designed to make the child into some kind of Issac Newton figure. Tiger parents want their children to become financially successful - lawyers, doctors, etc. High-skill workers. The fundamental difference between these professions and say the sciences is that you don't have to come up with anything NEW to be successful. As a thought experiment, you can find a prominent lawyer or doctor and just work towards turning yourself into a literal COPY of that person and if you can really succeed in doing so, you will have made it. By contrast, trying to turn yourself into a literal copy of a living scientist is useless in itself, because there is no guarantee that you will be lucky enough to discover anything new.

Also, let's not forget that sometimes the reason "there is not a clearly delineated pathway to achievement" could well be because the existence of such a thing would disrupt existing social hierarchies.

Re: The Last of the Tiger Parents

#56
As a second generation Asian American who is living in Hong Kong, this article (and most discussions about tiger parents) sounds like the writer has a blind spot - specifically, he wonders if he will emulate tiger parents without any understanding of the cultural values that cause tiger parents to be that way.

In Asian culture, obedience, order, and hierarchy are the values that shape society. Western cultures value individualism, but in Asian cultures, you are part of a unit or group, be it family, department or otherwise. This unit has a clear head/leader (parents or boss) who makes decisions for the entire unit with everyone else expected to obediently follow, and this obedience and hierarchy that makes the unit successful is seen as the highest moral standard in Confucian philosophy. However, the head must also be responsible to the subordinates, sacrificing for the subordinates what the subordinates do for the head. If the head acts in this way, he is morally right and the subordinates' obedience is a reciprocation or agreement of a mutually moral relationship.

See http://hua.umf.maine.edu/Reading_Revolutions/Confucius.html for a quick summary.

If you're a poor Asian immigrant strategizing how to get your family ahead, you will think about it from the perspective of the family unit, ignoring the individual. The generalized strategy would be for the parents to sacrifice themselves to push the kids as much as possible. In Confucian philosophy, the head is 'moral' in beating the kids into studying because they fulfill their responsibility to the kids in providing opportunities for a better life, and the subordinates, (kids) to reciprocate morality, should obediently follow.

Unfortunately, the kids grow up westernized. Confucian philosophy works because the moral obedience and obligation to the unit gets so deeply ingrained, it defines your satisfaction and value system on a deeper, instinctual level. You can get pushed to do things you wouldn't want to do as an individual because you get value out of it elsewhere in a moral or social context. However, if there is no carrot because instead of Confucian values of the unit, western values of individualism is instilled, then there is a problem - from the kid's point of view, it's all suffering. Even worse, it's a direct affront to what society is teaching should be valued (independence and autonomy), and it creates deep feelings of your parents 'being wrong' in asian american kids, enough to be a widespread phenomenon.

2nd generation Asian American adults often feel slighted by their parents very deeply beyond rationalism, and it's a moral wrong, a slight to the fundamental rights of human beings - the right to be an individual. But the result is a successful upper-middle class lifestyle, jumping multiple generations of wealth accumulation in just one. This duality makes a lot of Asian American adults at odds with themselves and their culture.

A lot of 2nd gen try to push while respecting individual feelings, but there's too little fuel to go full tiger parent - you don't need to jump wealth gaps, you value individualism too much, and most importantly, you just don't want your kids to suffer as much as you did.

In this sense, the 2nd generation is similar to the 1st. The major motivation for Asian immigrants was to have a better life, and for their family to not suffer so much. Compared to starving, or being hunted down by communists, or living in old open air houses with no ac or sanitation, what's a bit of forced studying?

Contrary to the view of the article, I don't see modern Asian Americans as regressing. I think we have the background and tools to combine the best parts of both cultures - a little pushing to go beyond themselves, with the empowerment that comes from western individual thought - to create a very strong next generation in the future.

Re: The Last of the Tiger Parents

#57
post #2

This is something I sometimes think about. My parents were pretty strict and emphasized education but were not "tiger parent" strict. I did pretty well in school but not "straight-A valedictorian" well. I'm out of college now with a job at the big 5 but I wonder where I would be had I studied harder in school and gotten into a better college. And would I be "happier"?

happiness comes from within. There is no sense wondering about the past since it cant be changed. The question is what will bring you happiness today to the rest of your life.

I graduated in the top 50% of my high school class and had a 3.2/4 GPA at a state EE program. I hear about high school kids studying 3 hours a day, I don't think I ever studied much more than 3 hours a week. Definitely not stellar academic credentials.

I ended up entering an md phd program where I washed out after 5 years. Fast forward a few years (20...) and I have my own company and will make about $800k-$1M this year.

Yet at no time was I unhappy, even when I was digging for change out of the couch to have enough money to buy food. I remember savoring the ridiculousness of the situation and reveling in it. Yet I'm no happier now than I was at that moment.

Part of life is figuring out what truly makes you happy. For most of us it ends up being bringing happiness to others in some way, not achievement and material possessions.

Re: The Last of the Tiger Parents

#58
I'm interested in what really qualifies as "Tiger Parenting", especially over whether my childhood counts as tiger parenting:

I don't remember elementary school that much. I remember getting my homework done quick because I could play the N64 or Xbox when my homework was done. Maybe that instilled in me the notion that academics come first. I also remember taking math quizzes and being pretty good at them in elementary school. It was like a game to see if I could be the first one to finish and still get 100%.

When I was in middle school and high school I was always aiming for As. Part of it was because I was genuinely interested and motivated to learn. More cynically, if I failed (or was even below average) academically it would be big blow to my sense of self-worth. Also because I desired the status and money that going to a good university would bring.

That said, I don't really think my parents ever strictly enforced academic commitment. Sure, I got As, but I also spent a ton of time playing video games, hanging out with friends, etc. I didn't have a bed time - I distinctly remember binging through a whole season of Dexter on a school night once. When my parents found a beer bottle tucked away in a closet (damn friends couldn't clean up for shit) they were more mad that I got caught rather than that my friends and I experimented with alcohol. I'd speculate that if I started getting mostly Bs or Cs they'd probably crack down on recreational time, but this was something that neither I nor my sister ever put to the test.

I don't want this to sound self-congratulatory, but I really think in retrospect my childhood was a great outcome. I had academic success because my parents instilled the principles in me at a young age, and by late childhood or young adulthood I was self motivated academically. Thus, in high school I was free to balance school and social life myself any my parents trusted me to get good grades without much input on their part.

It's also the kind of childhood I'd want to pass on to my kids. I'd want to instill in them the value of academic and professional success, but want them to be self motivated to achieve those goals beyond early childhood years.

Re: The Last of the Tiger Parents

#59
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. I'm saying they move there because of the existing communities in place, and they live in cramped condtions in order to afford it. >I am claiming that if one of the most populous cities in the country/world sees a high degree of poverty in a demographic it might be because that demographic has a high degree of poverty. You could actually look at the overall numbers though instead of extrapolating from a non-rando…

and why should we believe that "living in NYC" should select for "under achieving children" or "not tiger moms"? also why is "Asian countries poorer than the US" so easily dismiss-able for purposes of parenting when almost all "Asian Countries" are poorer than the US?

Looking at the income of first generation immigrants in relation to the income of the general population tells you absolutely nothing about the merits of the parenting methods of those immigrants.

If you don't understand why that is the case, there really isn't much point in continuing this.

Re: The Last of the Tiger Parents

#60

As a second generation Asian American who is living in Hong Kong, this article (and most discussions about tiger parents) sounds like the writer has a blind spot - specifically, he wonders if he will emulate tiger parents without any understanding of the cultural values that cause tiger parents to be that way. In Asian culture, obedience, order, and hierarchy are the values that shape society. Western cultures value…

I think people like the narrative of east vs west. There is some truth to generalizations. conformity vs nonconformity. tiger moms vs independence. Discussions like this always remind me of Philip Larkin's poem "this be the verse." People everywhere hate their parents. Agassi instantly comes to mind:

https://nordic.businessinsider.com/tennis-legen-andre-agassi...

The reality of things is probably not as tidy as we would like. The differences probably have more to do with thinking about the best possibilities for your child in the environment you are in. There are many dads that want their sons to be quarterbacks and many moms that want their daughters to be dancers. The overbearing parent is a universal phenomenon:

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20553556

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