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A world of free movement would be $78T richer

economist.com

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Re: A world of free movement would be $78T richer

#371

Post by jonnrb »

int_19h wrote: post #320
jonnrb wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My thoughts too, and the article sort of says this at the end. If the worry is that future migrants might not pay their way, why not charge them more for visas, or make them pay extra taxes, or restrict their access to welfare benefits? Such levies could also be used to regulate the flow of migrants, thus avoiding big, sudden surges. This is what the US does right now through the lottery system but it's just so restr…

What do you mean? The lottery just gives you a green card. Once you have it, you can apply for naturalization in 5 years. Once you get your citizenship, you have pretty much all the rights and benefits as any other citizen, except you can't get elected president.

I was more referring to the big sudden surges part in that there is in fact a lottery acting to regulate the flow of migrants. I'd even go so far as to say that under many circumstances, a green card gets you many of the important rights and benefits as any US citizen (other than voting of course).

Re: A world of free movement would be $78T richer

#372

Post by ThomPete »

qaq wrote: post #357
ThomPete wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not ignoring anything. I have tried both hiring into the EU and from EU to the US. Also you need to make the proper comparison with EU not just cherry pick a few countries. I can cherry pick countries to where it's very hard (try Denmark for instance). My claim was EU vs US again 11 million illegal immigrants living here and for a large part contributing to the economy that alone would never happen in the EU. An…

A resident of any Shengen country can work and live in any other Shengen country that's why I cherry picked. Sorry confused EB1 with EB5.

Thats not the argument i made though. Thats like saying a resident of any state in the us. We are talking about coming from outside the EU.

Re: A world of free movement would be $78T richer

#373

Post by ThomPete »

qaq wrote: post #358
ThomPete wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean by keeping them in Turkey or turning them away in the waters so they drown? I think you got the wrong information here.

You gonna pretend US border patrol is welcoming mexicans in US? That whole 0 tolerance thing is escaping your attention?

If they are legal yes and thats the discussion here. I repeat, its easier to get into the us legally than the eu. You want to count how many drowned to get into the eu? The EU isnt any better and 11 million people living illegally in the us on top of how many of them are immigrants the last 80 yearsshould be an indication of just how absurd the claims about the us immigration politics are.

Re: A world of free movement would be $78T richer

#374

Post by gremlinsinc »

What if instead of open borders, there were no borders.

What if the entire world (democratic regions at least) sign some sort of pact, each city-state gets 1 vote. Each state is taxed x amount to preserve an international military force that's goal is to thwart axis-type powers that might arise, but needs a 60%+ vote from city states.

Maybe an ai of some sort could decide the size/scope of region that equates to fair city-states. -- Travel between cities/states would be open as long as you don't mean harm to the area. Cities/states could set their own solutions to problems like healthcare, drugs, basic income, jobs, etc...

I think large governments like USA/Canada/EU/China create represive regimes, smaller self-governed entities could run things better locally, and still have open communications/trade/etc with nearby states/cities. It would also be less-prone to corruption as you'd need to pay thousands more politicians (ones in each locality) instead of just in D.C.

Personally, I'd love to start a blockchain/identity project to create a universal basic income with fool-proof/sybil-attack proof identity system, making fiat currencies un-needed and creating one-world blockchain-based currency, that helps alleviate pain caused by automation. I think a monetary system like this could take away some of the power and corruption from government.

Re: A world of free movement would be $78T richer

#375

Post by gremlinsinc »

intopieces wrote: post #181
temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #129

Open borders will, at first, cause downward pressure on wages, as the labor pool of workers able and willing to perform work for a lower price grows. The magnitude would be more pronounced than with what we've been currently able to observe with controlled borders, because the article proposes a scenario where welfare and public assistance would readily apply to newcomers too. In fact, there would be a growth in the…

>Because the article proposes a scenario where welfare and public assistance would readily apply to newcomers too. FTA: “If the worry is that future migrants might not pay their way, why not charge them more for visas, or make them pay extra taxes, or restrict their access to welfare benefits? Such levies could also be used to regulate the flow of migrants, thus avoiding big, sudden surges.”

I've thought about that a lot (I'm pro open-borders). I think we should get rid of income taxes, instead move to consumption taxes (money out is taxed) examples: Paying for anything: Rent, Food, Wages, Shareholders/Dividends, Estate transfer, Boats, Trains, Planes, etc... If you exchange money for ANYTHING it's taxed on the payers' side of the transaction. -- Then create a fair-id system so every citizen has an id, if you go to the store and forget your id you pay 15% sales tax, if you have your id you pay 4%.

This would immediately make non-documented people and visitors with greencards pay a lot of taxes. It's their choice if they want to stay/pay or go and not-pay their share, but the republicans can stop whining about immigrants not paying their fair share if they pay 3 times the sales tax.

Re: A world of free movement would be $78T richer

#376

Post by gremlinsinc »

smsm42 wrote: post #289
intopieces wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Because the article proposes a scenario where welfare and public assistance would readily apply to newcomers too. FTA: “If the worry is that future migrants might not pay their way, why not charge them more for visas, or make them pay extra taxes, or restrict their access to welfare benefits? Such levies could also be used to regulate the flow of migrants, thus avoiding big, sudden surges.”

> why not charge them more for visas, Because illegal immigrants do not use visas. So you would be hurting law-abiding people and encouraging circumventing the law - if you can't afford the visa anyway, the question of "should I just through the hoops to get legal visa or try illegal immigration" becomes moot. > make them pay extra taxes Why would they pay those taxes? They'd just work on black market and report zero…

Easy solution to all this. End income taxes. Make consumption tax + national id system. With id you pay 4%, without you pay 15-20%. Make the consumption tax be on everything : Wages, Rent, Mortgage, Food, etc... if you spend money on something it's taxed at the point of payment. - By wages - I mean the company pays the tax. If a person or company pays money or exchanges money it's taxed. Shareholder dividends, CEO bonuses, all taxed.

You could then fund a guaranteed basic income (for citizens only), and just adjust the sales/tax yearly to balance the budget-- everyone pays taxes, no deductions are given, but GBI would guarantee people wouldn't live in poverty at all. It'd be easier to manage technically so we could dismantle welfare and handout programs as well as the IRS.

Re: A world of free movement would be $78T richer

#377

Post by gremlinsinc »

incompatible wrote: post #279

I'm not entirely sold on the idea of cramming the vast majority of the world's population into the subset of countries that are relatively wealthy and well-run. In practice, the cramming continues within those countries into the most favoured cities. If we are thinking of pie-in-the-sky ideas like open borders, then why also try to think of a way to spread good government and wealth across all parts of the world? I.e…

I like the idea of open borders, guaranteed basic income (only for citizens), getting rid of income taxes, making all citizens pay a national sales tax instead (gbi would offset some of this), having a national id (with id you save 10-15% on sales tax without you pay a lot more, say 4-5% for citizens, 15-20% for migrants/travelers from abroad). -- This would make immigrants legal or not pay 3x the taxes, and I think a lot more people would be fine with that.

Sales tax would be more of a consumption/outbound tax -- all outbound expenses would be taxed if you buy or pay anyone it's taxed on payers side. So example a company pays wages they pay a sales tax on the wage, they buy office supplies, pay dividend to shareholders, pay ceo a bonus or golden parachute, buy land, etc... People would be taxed for paying rent, buying food, buying houses, buying land, etc.. on the purchase/exchange of money.

GBI would paid out to all citizens and sales tax could be adjusted yearly to balance the budget if there's a surplus/deficit from previous year.

Welfare/IRS can be dismantled completely and everything automated via technology. Saving billions. We'd need a lot less accountants, and tax workers. Tax software for consumers wouldn't be needed, etc.. It'd shore up a glut of industry we don't need.

Re: A world of free movement would be $78T richer

#378

Post by verelo »

ThomPete wrote: post #295
verelo wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you tried to do either? I’d love to hear what you’re basing this claim on.

ive got into the us on an O1 and now have a EB1 green card. i also founded a fairly big agency in Denmark hiring people from around the world so yeah I would say i have experience :)

I think it depends on a lot of factors. i.e. how much money you have, education background, prior experience and very significantly the country you're coming from.

Not to discount your experience, i am sure you've been through a lot of paperwork (i know i sure have, and i'm yet to meet someone who enjoys immigration departments!) but the US is pretty damn tough if you are not a) wealthy and/or b) highly educated and in demand.

Re: A world of free movement would be $78T richer

#379

Post by smsm42 »

gremlinsinc wrote: post #376
smsm42 wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why not charge them more for visas, Because illegal immigrants do not use visas. So you would be hurting law-abiding people and encouraging circumventing the law - if you can't afford the visa anyway, the question of "should I just through the hoops to get legal visa or try illegal immigration" becomes moot. > make them pay extra taxes Why would they pay those taxes? They'd just work on black market and report zero…

Easy solution to all this. End income taxes. Make consumption tax + national id system. With id you pay 4%, without you pay 15-20%. Make the consumption tax be on everything : Wages, Rent, Mortgage, Food, etc... if you spend money on something it's taxed at the point of payment. - By wages - I mean the company pays the tax. If a person or company pays money or exchanges money it's taxed. Shareholder dividends, CEO bo…

> Easy solution to all this. End income taxes.

With current political and budget system, I don't see any path to this ever happening. Maybe in theory that could be a better solution (I don't know, it would need thorough analysis) but I don't see how it could happen in reality.

> You could then fund a guaranteed basic income (for citizens only),

Again, same argument applies. If GBU is a benefit for society, there's no reason to gate it on citizenship - we'd be just limiting the benefit on irrelevant metric, it's like demanding to lower your own salary if your boss' last name begins with certain letter - it'd be irrational. If, however, it is not beneficial to society but is a wealth transfer which benefits one group while hurting another, because the former has more political clout - one should argue this should never be done at all, citizen or not.

Re: A world of free movement would be $78T richer

#380

Post by incompatible »

gremlinsinc wrote: post #377
incompatible wrote: post #279

I'm not entirely sold on the idea of cramming the vast majority of the world's population into the subset of countries that are relatively wealthy and well-run. In practice, the cramming continues within those countries into the most favoured cities. If we are thinking of pie-in-the-sky ideas like open borders, then why also try to think of a way to spread good government and wealth across all parts of the world? I.e…

I like the idea of open borders, guaranteed basic income (only for citizens), getting rid of income taxes, making all citizens pay a national sales tax instead (gbi would offset some of this), having a national id (with id you save 10-15% on sales tax without you pay a lot more, say 4-5% for citizens, 15-20% for migrants/travelers from abroad). -- This would make immigrants legal or not pay 3x the taxes, and I think…

As an immigrant I feel sufficiently discriminated against already: pay the same tax rates as anybody else, but ineligible for various government benefits and unable to vote. All because of a technicality: I don't have a parent born in the country I live in.
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