Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital • Hacker News Board

Re: Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital

#281

Post by mirimir » Sun, Jun 24, 2018, 9:16 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #258

PurpleBoxDragon wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but that we can't morally judge what they did "through our Western colonial lens" by saying that it was horrific. We can, but it is pointless (the culture is now dead and gone) and it does raise questions about objective and absolute morality, of which many people disagree. It also can easily lead into very messy discussion about modern day actions which in some sub cultures (and other cultures that may one day exis…

Because all those things are very, very different? Its common to blur things and make 'everything ok' by ignoring how different things really are.

Sure, FGM and MGM are very different. I consider FGM (and all the associated misogynistic crap) to be utterly horrible. However, there's a range of FGM practices. And at the least-extreme end, it's not that different from MGM. Neither prevents orgasm, and both interfere with victims' sexuality.

So what disturbs me is how accepted MGM is. And how those who criticize it are dismissed as crazies. That's exactly the situation for FGM in societies where it's the norm.

And again, FGM is undoubtedly a far^N more serious issue. And I support efforts to pressure and educate societies that practice it. Just as I supported efforts to end apartheid in South Africa. Or slavery in northern Africa, India, etc.

Re: Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital

#282

Post by mirimir » Sun, Jun 24, 2018, 9:18 PM UTC

klibertp wrote: post #227

mirimir wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, here's another example. For about 40 years, the United States and the Soviet Union engaged in a global game of nuclear chicken. The winning strategy was Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD). And it was only luck that an exchange wasn't triggered by accident. So imagine how people in 2600 (if there are any) will see that. If anthropologists discover some artifact that brings it to general attention, anyway. "Horrifi…

I don't think cockroaches will evolve their own archeologists as soon as 2600...

More likely is radiation-resistant machines. As in Spielberg's AI.

Re: Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital

#283

Post by golergka » Sun, Jun 24, 2018, 9:53 PM UTC

spamizbad wrote: post #277

golergka wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It says nothing, because this variable is not enough to make any kind of moral judgement. In fact, I just had almost exactly the same discussion here on HN ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17367827 ) merely two days ago and I don't expect to anything deeper than typical cliches anymore.

You're just replacing moral relativism with counterfactual thinking. Just because you can imagine an alternate scenario where things might have been worse, that doesn't provide moral justification for an action. This is especially true since we know what the original justification for the invasion of Iraq and I can't imagine it being aligned with any counterfactual thinking on the subject. The type of thinking you es…

No, I'm imagining the whole space of the alternatives not just "it could've been worse". You clearly are constructing a strawman out of my argument and it doesn't feel that well-constructed, because my argument is not about giving a judgement to a particular situation (especially Iraq) but about the whole method you use for such judgements.

Re: Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital

#284

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jun 24, 2018, 10:01 PM UTC

tomohawk wrote: post #275

felipemnoa wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>were probably a big reason why Spain so quickly supplanted the Aztecs. Maybe, maybe not. It didn't hurt that the Spaniards had powerful biological weapons on their side that decimated [1] the Aztec population. Same as what happened here in the United States with the native population. Had it been the natives spreading new infectious diseases to the arriving europeans, history would probably have been quite differen…

It's estimated that about 1/3 of European population died due to Syphilis brought back from the new world.

[deleted]

Re: Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital

#285

Post by spamizbad » Sun, Jun 24, 2018, 10:14 PM UTC

golergka wrote: post #283

spamizbad wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're just replacing moral relativism with counterfactual thinking. Just because you can imagine an alternate scenario where things might have been worse, that doesn't provide moral justification for an action. This is especially true since we know what the original justification for the invasion of Iraq and I can't imagine it being aligned with any counterfactual thinking on the subject. The type of thinking you es…

No, I'm imagining the whole space of the alternatives not just "it could've been worse". You clearly are constructing a strawman out of my argument and it doesn't feel that well-constructed, because my argument is not about giving a judgement to a particular situation (especially Iraq) but about the whole method you use for such judgements.

Again, what you’re describing is counterfactual thinking. It doesn’t stop being counterfactual just because you considered lots of stuff.

And if you want to make the extraordinary claim of “Imagining the whole space of the alternatives” you should provide some evidence of such. Because right now, most experts who have attempted that have come to the conclusion that Operation Iraqi Freedom was a mistake: not merely one of bad planning or execution, but rather it never should have been attempted to begin with. This includes some of its biggest architects and boosters.

Re: Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital

#286

Post by horseLOGIC » Sun, Jun 24, 2018, 10:38 PM UTC

bodi wrote: post #278

horseLOGIC wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You presumably quote that as if there was a contradiction there, but there isn't. We have fairly recent cases of children willingly blowing themselves up in Syria. All it really takes is the promise of a glorious afterlife, possibly combined with a life of deprivation in the here and now. Being sacrificed to the Aztec gods was a great honor, it was probably voluntary in the majority of cases. As a rule of thumb, you…

No child (or adult..) on this planet has ever willing blown their self up and that is exactly why we as an “evolved” society have various consent laws.

That's... simply untrue.

First of all, people kill themselves for all kinds of reasons, all the time. Secondly, people are willing to sacrifice their lives for a perceived greater good. Martyrs are revered in many cultures around the world, including Christian culture.

The fact that some martyrs use modern explosives is just an "implementation detail".

Re: Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital

#287

Post by narrator » Sun, Jun 24, 2018, 11:46 PM UTC

nyolfen wrote: post #261

Malarkey73 wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article uses the same "tone" that we regularly use to write about the Romans - who crucified people, ritually strangled prisoners during their triumphs, kept slaves, and made people fight to death for their fun. That said I'm not sure the Gauls or Parthians or Carthaginians were saintly. I don't think the author is implying that the Aztecs were better or the same or worse than Tlaxcala or Cortez conquistador. The…

>You adopt the neutral tone to avoid endless whataboutery. >It's hard for me to imagine that people wanted to be sacrificed, but that's my own biases and cultural conditioning talking.

The Aztec culture was exterminated 100s of years ago why politicize it?

Re: Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital

#288

Post by narrator » Sun, Jun 24, 2018, 11:48 PM UTC

Turing_Machine wrote: post #189

lostlogin wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Care to give examples? And where is a place you would define as Marxist in 2018?

>Care to give examples? Sure. Soviet Famine of 1921 (5 million). Soviet Famine of 1932-33 (7-10 million minimum, perhaps many more). Soviet Famine of 1947 (1 million or so). Chinese Famine of 1959-1961 (15-43 million). Cambodian Famine of 1974-79 (2 million). Ethiopian Famine of 1984-85 (400,000). North Korean Famine of 1996 (3.5 million). Number of famines in the capitalist west over the same time period: zero. Note…

You forgot the Great Bengali famine of 1943 (3 million) under British rule in India.

The British had the habit of ducking responsibility for all the famines that killed millions in India under their rule by blaming it on overpopulation. That there were no major famines after Indian independence is conveniently ignored.

Re: Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital

#289

Post by mike00632 » Mon, Jun 25, 2018, 12:24 AM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #101

mike00632 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" they are almost always based on the idea that plants don't have brains..." I'm afraid this is a strawman argument. Most vegans/vegetarians choose to spare other animals based on their capacity to suffer.

So they claim. But: A. I'm an environmental studies major and anytime I present evidence that plants are aware of suffering, it is ignored and dismissed. B. I was homeless for nearly 6 years. A so-called ethical vegan I knew (who wasn't actually a full-time vegan and ate vegetarian, not vegan, as convenience suited them) happily and enthusiastically added to my suffering during that time. Given how often ethical vega…

"I'm an environmental studies major and anytime I present evidence that plants are aware of suffering, it is ignored and dismissed."

As it should be. When you say "pain" and "suffering" you mean in in no similar way to your own pain and suffering whereas vegans do. You're co-opting the language of ethics to try and point out hypocrisy. Also, let's apply some logic here and acknowledge that far more plants are "harmed" to make animal food products than plant food products, thus it's still consistent for ethical people to eat a plant based diet.

"I have zero reason to believe this individual's cruelty towards me was some wild aberration in the veg- community."

Vegans are defined by caring for the well being of others. That gives us every reason to think that a vegan would care more than anyone else about the well being of others. Your anecdote about a vegan who was mean to you once is something you shouldn't use to draw conclusions about an entire group of people.

Re: Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital

#290

Post by mike00632 » Mon, Jun 25, 2018, 12:26 AM UTC

Ensorceled wrote: post #112

mike00632 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Raccoons don't have the capacity for moral judgement but humans do. It doesn't make sense to think of a raccoon's actions as a part of a moral framework but it does for humans. In fact, we already do. What vegans/vegetarians are doing is extending that logic to be more consistent in our diet.

The premise under discussion is that they have a soul, so it's a big leap to say that they have a soul but no capacity for moral judgment. I also reject the premise that an act may be evil if propagated by a human but ok if done by a being without moral judgment.

I don't believe anyone has a soul yet I still make moral judgments about our actions. I don't think that having a soul is what gives us morality.