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AMD Tackles Coming “Chiplet” Revolution With New Chip Network Scheme

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Re: AMD Tackles Coming “Chiplet” Revolution With New Chip Network Scheme

#21
The main issue AMD seems to be solving here is the yields at 7nm and lower processes.

Smaller chips means that you get more yield in the presence of errors. Intel builds relatively large 600mm^2 chips (like the XCC aka the 28-core Xeon), but AMD thinks the future is to build networks of ~200mm^2 chips, like what they've done with Zen / Threadripper / EPYC.

The advantage for AMD is that they've built a single design: the Zeppelin die. RyZen is simply one Zeppelin. Threadripper is two Zeppelins. And EPYC is four Zeppelins.

That's it. One singular chip design, mass produced over and over again, to handle AMD's entire consumer and high-end line. Keep this one design small to help yields and maybe AMD can get a process advantage over Intel's larger designs.

AMD's "mobile" or "APU" line is Raven Ridge (a 2nd design at 193mm^2) that doesn't use this.

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The above is the current status quo. This "active interposer" that AMD is developing in the article would go above and beyond in terms of integration.

Note that HBM2 (next-generation high-bandwidth RAM) requires the interposer. PCB is not good enough for HBM's protocol. Ditto with Hybrid-Memory Cube (a competing standard). So it seems like the future of computer parts will be the interposer.

The interposer isn't necessary for AMD's CPU strategy however. So the roadmap for this network won't come till 2020+ or later (CPUs). Unless AMD might be building this network for their GPU line?? (But that roadmap is also past 2020). I bet this is all research-and-development, and may never come out as a commercial product.

Re: AMD Tackles Coming “Chiplet” Revolution With New Chip Network Scheme

#22
post #11

Is the Big Deal about this having what used to be different cards/chips sharing a cpu-style insanely fast bus, instead of trickling stuff over pcie or dram channels? If that is the case, the advantage of this will depend on the amount of bus saturation to be eliminated. Should be interesting. Everything works on Infiniti fabric!

Seems to be the opposite.

With HBM2 being used in AMD's (and NVidia's) high-end products, it seems like the DRAM Channels are going to require an expensive interposer.

But "what else" can benefit from an interposer? If your RAM requires it, are there cheaper or more efficient designs that are built out of a network of chiplets on an interposer, as opposed to building out huge chips all the time?

AMD is already forced to build an interposer for Vega64. Might as well research other uses of it.

Re: AMD Tackles Coming “Chiplet” Revolution With New Chip Network Scheme

#23

The main issue AMD seems to be solving here is the yields at 7nm and lower processes. Smaller chips means that you get more yield in the presence of errors. Intel builds relatively large 600mm^2 chips (like the XCC aka the 28-core Xeon), but AMD thinks the future is to build networks of ~200mm^2 chips, like what they've done with Zen / Threadripper / EPYC. The advantage for AMD is that they've built a single design:…

I am reading this chiplet as basically the same thing as Intel's EMIB.

>AMD's "mobile" or "APU" line is Raven Ridge (a 2nd design at 193mm^2) that doesn't use this.

My guess is that future APU will be chiplet based design as well.

Re: AMD Tackles Coming “Chiplet” Revolution With New Chip Network Scheme

#24
post #19

Will this still allow modular builds or it will require buying a single board with everything soldered to it?

My guess is modular will still be an option, if not the only option. x86 CPUs have really been PCBs for over 20 years. You are now starting to see a move toward SoMs take off in the embedded world, which combine the CPU and RAM on a module to simplify board layout. In the past, these would have been separate components that customers laid down themselves on their custom PCB.

Re: AMD Tackles Coming “Chiplet” Revolution With New Chip Network Scheme

#25
post #23

The main issue AMD seems to be solving here is the yields at 7nm and lower processes. Smaller chips means that you get more yield in the presence of errors. Intel builds relatively large 600mm^2 chips (like the XCC aka the 28-core Xeon), but AMD thinks the future is to build networks of ~200mm^2 chips, like what they've done with Zen / Threadripper / EPYC. The advantage for AMD is that they've built a single design:…

I am reading this chiplet as basically the same thing as Intel's EMIB. >AMD's "mobile" or "APU" line is Raven Ridge (a 2nd design at 193mm^2) that doesn't use this. My guess is that future APU will be chiplet based design as well.

Not quite.

Intel's EMIB is a specific design that is cheaper than a full silicon interposer.

As such, EMIB is a methodology which may enable chiplet designs in the future. Well, I guess Intel did marry that Xeon+FPGA chip earlier this year, so EMIB is deployed today. That's probably as "chiplet" as you can get, since the FPGA is actually on the CPU's cache-coherence network.

Alas: Intel's UPI (ultrapath interconnect) is designed for PCB boards. Its how 2socket or 8-socket chips communicate together. So its not really doing anything "special" with EMIB, its just shrinking down a PCB in some respects.

> My guess is that future APU will be chiplet based design as well.

It really depends on what the "sweetspot" is. Below a certain size, you don't get any yield benefits. While above a certain size, it becomes expensive... and then impractical... to build chips.

AMD's APUs are generally seen as low-cost cheap chips. At under 200mm^2, its likely that APUs will simply be more efficiently manufactured as single pieces of silicon.

Now, if AMD decided to make a "high end" APU, kinda like their Intel+AMD collaboration project Hades Canyon, then maybe that would use chiplets of some kind. From my understanding, the Hades Canyon collaboration project is just running PCIe however, so its not really a chiplet yet.

Re: AMD Tackles Coming “Chiplet” Revolution With New Chip Network Scheme

#27
post #26

It reminds me of the GreenArrays chip created by Chuck Moore. There was some hubbub here on HN a few years ago about it -- what ever happened to it? http://www.greenarraychips.com/

After having programmed for some unusual architectures (CM2, others) I have to say that the GreenArrays chip looked to be... impressively difficult to program for.

Then I played the game "TIS-100" and found out that my intuition was very likely correct.

Re: AMD Tackles Coming “Chiplet” Revolution With New Chip Network Scheme

#28
post #26

It reminds me of the GreenArrays chip created by Chuck Moore. There was some hubbub here on HN a few years ago about it -- what ever happened to it? http://www.greenarraychips.com/

It certainly does seem like chip design is marching grudgingly from Core i7 to Cell BE and eventually to Connection Machine. Physics doesn’t really care about ease of programming.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_(microprocessor)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connection_Machine

Re: AMD Tackles Coming “Chiplet” Revolution With New Chip Network Scheme

#29
post #26

It reminds me of the GreenArrays chip created by Chuck Moore. There was some hubbub here on HN a few years ago about it -- what ever happened to it? http://www.greenarraychips.com/

It certainly does seem like chip design is marching grudgingly from Core i7 to Cell BE and eventually to Connection Machine. Physics doesn’t really care about ease of programming. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_(microprocessor) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connection_Machine

The big difference is that Connection Machine enjoyed being developed in programming languages that were better suited to distributed computing, whereas current chip design we still need to drag system developers away from C.

Re: AMD Tackles Coming “Chiplet” Revolution With New Chip Network Scheme

#30
I wonder if FPGAs could be a node too. That would allow us to mix programmable, highly parallel analog modeled acceleration onto the same high speed / direct connect bus as all the other fixed, traditional computing components. I really like the approach AMD is suggesting here, treating it like nodes on a network.
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