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Masters of Love: Lasting relationships come down to kindness, generosity (2014)

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Re: Masters of Love: Lasting relationships come down to kindness, generosity (2014)

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No marriage is perfect. Every couple fights sometimes, if both people are being real with each other, and if they're not, that's a huge problem in itself. (I think everdev is probably right: they didn't let you see them fighting.) The goal is not to never fight; it's to always fight fair . Sounds like your parents didn't show you how to do that — which is too bad, if they themselves knew, because most people don't. I…

>No marriage is perfect. Every couple fights sometimes, if both people are being real with each other, and if they're not, that's a huge problem in itself. Buying into this argument that "every couple fight sometimes" is why so many people never eliminate fights from their relationships, because they think it's normal and so never put the effort into bettering themselves and addressing the root causes of problems so…

The root cause of fight is that partners disagree over something that is important to both (likely related to some core value). The contributing factor is oftentimes stress, people are not able to be perfect under stress and sleep deprivation.

Self-control and compassion don't make disagreement or bad feelings over important things disappear. They are still present. The "never fight" relationships (not just marriage, but also friendships) are either "we do things as separately as possible" or one of the two ceased to talk about his or her issues. The latter are then "I had not idea partner is unhappy and bam shock divorce" situations.

The easiest way how to keep calm is not to care. It does not have to be screaming match, but if you never disagree about things like child raising, it is likely that one did checked out.

Re: Masters of Love: Lasting relationships come down to kindness, generosity (2014)

#42

I'll quote Richard White's answer on Quora to the question "What was the worst thing your parents ever did to you?" > Every day from as early as I can remember, they were clearly and obviously in love with each other. Even after 50 years of marriage they were still acting like two teenagers going steady. They always supported each other in everything they did or tried to do. They "had each other's backs" at all times…

Keep in mind your memory of your parents tends to start well into your childhood. You might have been as old as 10 before there's anything in there at all about how your parents behaved towards each other. Certainly 5. I say this because when kids are small, they stress the hell out out their parents. And that stress often turns into arguments. Little sleep, and endless menial tasks like cleaning poop does that even…

This exactly. My wife and I are both on our second marriage and we were in our mid 30s when we got married. She had two sons that she was raising alone. Ironically enough, the relationship with my stepsons was rock solid almost immediately, but the first four years of our marriage, it seems like we were contemplating divorce at least once every six months and would go weeks without speaking to each other. We were both older, set in our ways, and had different outlooks on a lot of things.

But if you look at us now, you would think we are the perfect couple and our marriage is a well oiled machine . It took four years for us to get there.

Our sons saw this first hand and were old enough to know what was going on. But if their earliest memories were us four to seven years into our marriage, out of the financial jams that we were both in when we got married, etc. Thier perspectives on how easy a great marriage is would be completely different.

If I look at my parents marriage growing up, I would have idealized it too. My parents have been married for close to 50 years and together for almost 60 - they were high school sweethearts. By the time I was born, they had already been together for 14 years.

Re: Masters of Love: Lasting relationships come down to kindness, generosity (2014)

#44
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No marriage is perfect. Every couple fights sometimes, if both people are being real with each other, and if they're not, that's a huge problem in itself. Buying into this argument that "every couple fight sometimes" is why so many people never eliminate fights from their relationships, because they think it's normal and so never put the effort into bettering themselves and addressing the root causes of problems so…

You make an interesting point. Most people would for example never shout at a coworker, but people consider shouting in an argument with one's spouse fairly routine.

The stakes are lower at work and less (if at all) emotional at least for me. At the end of the day I really don’t care enough about a job to get upset. My job is just a paycheck. It’s purely transactional. My job is disposable. If my job causes me stress over a prolonged period of time, I can easily find another one without any regret. I haven’t invested anything emotionally into my job. My marriage on the other hand is different.

I’m not saying that is an excuse for fighting unfairly or being hurtful. But my wife, my parents, and my (step)sons are the only people I have a deep emotional connection to that I won’t separate myself from awhile if they get on my nerves.

Re: Masters of Love: Lasting relationships come down to kindness, generosity (2014)

#45
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure about what is wrong about an article from 2014. It is not talking about the last JavaScript implementation or AI achievement.

Perhaps the comment was referencing a myriad of different factors which might affect relationships now that didn't exist in 2014? According to the World Happiness Report 2017, there is a trend which suggests Americans are growing less happy each year. So maybe in the interim of 4 years the world has become drastically less optimistic about intimate relationships... Or not.

If we are leveling our critical analysis and skepticism to the extreme I would say that all these studies are never settled and the World Happiness Report does not invalidate findings of the other study.

> there is a trend which suggests Americans are growing less happy each year. So maybe in the interim of 4 years the world.

So are you saying that Amricans = World? Please (for example) go to Spain and look about how happiness works differently than America.

Re: Masters of Love: Lasting relationships come down to kindness, generosity (2014)

#46
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somewhat raw but at the end of the day I'd say mostly true. I'll add my own conjecture: the root problem is that this hypothetical couple you describe (who is more common than many would like to admit) are both settling. They are settling because they didn't take marriage seriously earlier in their lives. They didn't take marriage seriously because society stopped forcing them to do so. And nature also didn't force t…

Do you imply that the only way of having a meaningful life when your job is mediocre is by creating a family? What about other recreational activities or hobbies? Somewhat anecdotally, I recall a grade school teacher that was single in her 50s but remained active within a large volunteer community supporting youth. She often discussed how her participation in this circle gave her life purpose. Maybe the systemic issu…

If I divide my adult life up into my relationships, my observations....

Phase 1 - 20s. Graduated from college, moved from my small city to a larger metro area, went through some physical issues while at the same time trying to establish my career. It was a lonely time. I had one or two female friends who I would hang out with occasionally but they were both in the “friend zone” (one by mutual choice and one no shared attraction).

Phase 2: late 20s, early 30s. Got married just because I was lonely and all of the warning signs were there before we got married. It was an equally lonely marriage, with no love and I started spending a lot of time pursuing working side hobbies to ignore the problem.

Phase 3: early to mid 30s. Divorced. I had a more active social life, lots of friends, fun hobbies, no serious relationships. It was better and more fulfilling than the first time around but still there was something missing coming to a big house in the evening and being alone.

Phase 4a - mid 30s to 40. Started dating my now wife. Our marriage was really on the rocks. We were both older, set in our ways and dealing with the financial repercussions of our former marriages and in my case, my failed real estate side business. It wasn’t lonely but it was unstable.

Phase 4b. We both worked out our former issues and as we got through our previous financial issues things are a lot less stressful. We have what I consider a pretty good marriage.

I don’t care what anyone says. Having money solves a lot of issues. There are a lot more “ands” than “ors” - we don’t have to argue about doing this or that - we can do both.

It’s scary, but I can’t imagine having a fulfilling life without being able to come home and having someone to share my life, my victories, my defeats, and just share life with.

Re: Masters of Love: Lasting relationships come down to kindness, generosity (2014)

#47
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No marriage is perfect. Every couple fights sometimes, if both people are being real with each other, and if they're not, that's a huge problem in itself. Buying into this argument that "every couple fight sometimes" is why so many people never eliminate fights from their relationships, because they think it's normal and so never put the effort into bettering themselves and addressing the root causes of problems so…

The root cause of fight is that partners disagree over something that is important to both (likely related to some core value). The contributing factor is oftentimes stress, people are not able to be perfect under stress and sleep deprivation. Self-control and compassion don't make disagreement or bad feelings over important things disappear. They are still present. The "never fight" relationships (not just marriage,…

>The root cause of fight is that partners disagree over something that is important to both (likely related to some core value).

If both partners disagree about a core value (and no mutually agreeable compromise is possible), the rational thing to do is either separate or for one party to accept the disagreement and move on. Repeatedly arguing about something serves absolutely no purpose, as there's extremely little chance of one party changing the other's mind this way (as is the case for angry arguments in general). As the Einstein quote goes, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and again but expecting a different result.

Stress and sleep deprivation indeed make this more difficult, but these are things that can be eliminated, if not easily: case study, people who aren't sleep derived or stressed (everybody's probably met at least one).

>Self-control and compassion don't make disagreement or bad feelings over important things disappear.

Compassion and empathy make it easier to see why other people feel/think about a matter in a particular way, and hence easier to sympathise with their point of view, which in turn reduces bad feelings about it. Self-control helps us not get angry about things we've accepted (if we haven't chosen to separate, and can't convince our partner to accept our view, then we've implicitly accepted them having their view), as we can make our brain see how silly/irrational it is to get angry about something we've agreed to, reducing bad feelings.

> It does not have to be screaming match, but if you never disagree about things like child raising, it is likely that one did checked out.

I agree disagreement is practically unavoidable, but a disagreement need not become a fight. Getting angry is a terrible way to resolve disagreements. People manage to disagree about things they care about at work without getting physically angry, as they know getting angry will probably harm their case.

Re: Masters of Love: Lasting relationships come down to kindness, generosity (2014)

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No marriage is perfect. Every couple fights sometimes, if both people are being real with each other, and if they're not, that's a huge problem in itself. (I think everdev is probably right: they didn't let you see them fighting.) The goal is not to never fight; it's to always fight fair . Sounds like your parents didn't show you how to do that — which is too bad, if they themselves knew, because most people don't. I…

>No marriage is perfect. Every couple fights sometimes, if both people are being real with each other, and if they're not, that's a huge problem in itself. Buying into this argument that "every couple fight sometimes" is why so many people never eliminate fights from their relationships, because they think it's normal and so never put the effort into bettering themselves and addressing the root causes of problems so…

Your post rings very true for me.

I’ve always preferred a more relaxed and methodical approach to “fights,” which makes them more like solution focused discussions, and my most recent ex seemed to expect to scream at each other before we could get to the bottom of the issue. It reminded me of the Monty Python bartering sketch. Why cause hurt if you both want to solve a problem?

Re: Masters of Love: Lasting relationships come down to kindness, generosity (2014)

#49
My wife and I have a company together and work from home, so we pretty much see each other all day every day.

When we first started working together we got in a lot of fights and put our relationship at risk. We realized that we had to figure it out or our relationship would break.

Around the same time this happened, we were incredibly lucky to have attended a free workshop called Founder's Communication (done free by innerspace.org highly highly recommended for anyone in a long term committed relationship, not just founders) which opened up our eyes and helped us improve our communication to the point where we realized that almost without exception, our arguments and fights were triggered by things that had nothing to do with what we were arguing about.

We discovered that "99%" of the time, the cause of our fights were that we were hungry, sleepy, in pain, or worse, a combination of any of those. Then we first started getting in the habit of trying to pause fights as early as possible and ask each other/ourselves if we were hungry, sleepy or in pain, then if either of us was, we would try to address the issue first (get some rest, food or comfort). Then we realized, why not prevent these things altogether? We could easily plan to avoid hunger and sleepiness, pain is harder but also a lot more unusual.

Now we are so aware of this stuff that we hardly ever fight, and whenever we end up saying something bad/mean in the heat of the moment, we are able to understand that we didn't really mean it, forgive ourselves quickly and move on.

As a side note, this is really just an application of the realization researchers have made, that verbal communication only conveys a small fraction of what we are trying to say, the rest is all body language. Watch out about thinking too much of the meaning of what anyone has said to you. Highly recommend reading the book The Charisma Myth by Olivia Fox.

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