Live data from Hacker News

Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital

sciencemag.org

161–170 of 322 posts

Re: Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital

#161
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can get giving people in different situations various levels of leeway as far as comparing my decisions sitting at my computer here to their decisions and such. But damn... what does she even mean by "horrific"... how is that even a thing you would bother to dispute?

Because what "horrific" means depends on your culture. So sure, it's horrific for you and me. But it arguably wasn't horrific for Aztecs back then. Or even for their victims. Analogous in the Western tradition is the belief that honorable soldiers should freely give their lives to protect comrades and country. To me, that's also horrific, but whatever.

I don't think anyone describing the practice intended to be role playing / speaking as an Aztecs....

Re: Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital

#162
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm imagining numerous editorials "I don't know how to tell you to stop sacrificing children...."

Speaking of editorializing, the article's author took to Twitter [0] to defend her article's reverent/respectful tone and (nowadays-common) unspoken premise that all cultures and ideologies are equally good and valid. You'd think it'd be easy to use ritual vivisection, human sacrifice at scale, organized child murder, and cannibalism [1] as an absolutely unambiguous black-and-white line by which to demarcate civiliza…

in modern western society, we tend to have a regard for the lives of [certain] individuals in the short term, at the expense of lives of others in the longer term, not to mention relatively little regard for the environment, or other species.

other societies may have been held together as engines that required the input of thousands of human lives to be sacrificed to appease the gods, our society functionally appears to require the sacrifice of the future of the planet for the appeasement of quarterly targets. i'm editorialising a bit, but you get the idea, particularly if you've read a few papers discussing "business as usual" economic-environmental modelling scenarios projecting out to the end of the century.

i'm not arguing that either mode of operating a society is laudable, but much of modern western society's focus on short term materialist and individualist goals may produce misery for our species and other species on a truly obscene scale never before experienced in human history.

Re: Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital

#164
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's fundamentally a philosophical question. I think it's a surprisingly insightful observation.

One is to appease "the gods". The other is to protect society (and punish the evil) {as they saw it}. Quite different.

> One is to appease "the gods". The other is to protect society

Defining 2 things then calling the definition different is not compelling.

The thinking that makes them less different is that they both serve "a greater good" (a just society or secular society) or "specific good" (of a community or divine favor). How you perceive the original intent or what terms you use are not relevant to the association.

Re: Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital

#165

Threads that are respectful, interesting and insightful like this are why I adore HN. Please don’t ever change. That aside, As a historian, I think our skepticism of primary sources has gone way way way to far. Plutarch is ignored, because Roman. Cortez was ignored because Spanish. Do they have reason to exaggerate? Sure and they at times do. But the archeological evidence on both Carthage and Cortez was really clear…

>>were probably a big reason why Spain so quickly supplanted the Aztecs. Maybe, maybe not. It didn't hurt that the Spaniards had powerful biological weapons on their side that decimated [1] the Aztec population. Same as what happened here in the United States with the native population. Had it been the natives spreading new infectious diseases to the arriving europeans, history would probably have been quite differen…

History could have turned out differently, but wouldn't it require other factors to also change? For instance, isn't European colonialism responsible for both the larger number of diseases the explorers had been carrying, but also the higher herd immunity? And that the native's relative isolation led them to be more exposed when confronted with foreign cultures?

I guess what I'm asking is, isn't this a little bit of a chicken/egg situation? If the natives had been more aggressive in expansion, they may have had a higher exposure rate to other cultures and diseases and thereby a higher immunity to it as well as leading to more genetic diversity, and possibly having reached Europe first?

I guess the way I read your comment was implying that history could have easily been different (which you may or may not actually be stating), but the number of factors (genetic/cultural temperament, geology, etc) all have to line up over such a long period so as to basically be a fundamentally different world history than what has transpired, both before and after the actual colonisation period.

I overall agree with your point, that it was a large factor in the colonisation of the Americas, but even that aspect was far more determined or influenced by a huge range of factors that co-mingle into the history we know (and largely left to random natural processes and historical fiat).

I'm probably being overly pedantic (it is Saturday night on HN after all ;)), but I guess your statement read similarly to other "history-could-be-different" thought experiments, but seem fundamentally different (I'm contrasting that to the most common experiments, situations like the TV show High Castle and what if Germany won the war, or what if JFK hadn't been assasinated, etc).

Again, I'm not necessarily disagreeing, just following a mental thread of what would be needed in order for that change to be possible. Having written and read all that, at the very least, I was assuming something that's probably different than what you're actually saying.

Your comment does make me wonder about some of the other accounts of European history where the Romans had a harder time invading (parts of Brittania, for example) where the cultures were written off as barbarian and completely deranged or had large myths associated with them, if disease played some part in the comparable success/failure of colonisation for those areas and the coloring of Western history in general.

Re: Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital

#166
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking of editorializing, the article's author took to Twitter [0] to defend her article's reverent/respectful tone and (nowadays-common) unspoken premise that all cultures and ideologies are equally good and valid. You'd think it'd be easy to use ritual vivisection, human sacrifice at scale, organized child murder, and cannibalism [1] as an absolutely unambiguous black-and-white line by which to demarcate civiliza…

in modern western society, we tend to have a regard for the lives of [certain] individuals in the short term, at the expense of lives of others in the longer term, not to mention relatively little regard for the environment, or other species. other societies may have been held together as engines that required the input of thousands of human lives to be sacrificed to appease the gods, our society functionally appears…

If your cultural relativism/multiculturalism/whatever-you-want-to-call-it leads you to equate/compare "institutionalized torture killing of children" with "pollution," that's a hint that you've made some drastic reasoning errors.

It's such a silly, unreasonable ideology that it basically refutes itself when you get anywhere near a corner case like this.

Some cultures/ideologies really are better than others. If you need me, I'll be right here in my Western Civilization, happily not vivisecting anyone.

Re: Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital

#167
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because what "horrific" means depends on your culture. So sure, it's horrific for you and me. But it arguably wasn't horrific for Aztecs back then. Or even for their victims. Analogous in the Western tradition is the belief that honorable soldiers should freely give their lives to protect comrades and country. To me, that's also horrific, but whatever.

I don't think anyone describing the practice intended to be role playing / speaking as an Aztecs....

It's not that they're role playing. It's that they're professionally neutral.

Re: Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital

#168

This article doesn't specifically mention cannibalism, but in my twenties I read a book that posited that "the lamb" of Christianity being a symbol of peace, as well as the Hindu reverence for the cow, were based on their ability to provide food security because they are grazers who are able to turn grass into protein. Grass is not a human food source. So this means they don't compete for the same food sources we do.…

Hundreds of millions of vegetarians in India thrive without eating meat just fine

Re: Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital

#169
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then again, it makes sense to put things into historical perspective. When we are about to talk about how one group was murderous and cruel, and how odd it makes us feel, it makes sense to point out what was going on elsewhere. Especially when the exact group reporting on those things is involved in cruelties of their own and uses these reports to excuse their own cruelties. Cortez him self was quite cruel, fond of t…

People can’t stay on topic these days. More interested in being Internet arm charm historians what-about-ing every topic possible. It’s just an article about Aztecs.

People up thread discuss how good guy Cortez must have been, merely affected by Aztek sacrifices and saving locals. That is somehow on topic? Why the difference?

It is as if people were emotionally invested into this, despite this being hundred years old affair.

So yes, this matters because thread up there want to make adventure book out of this. It is not about trying to figure history, it is about treating it all as scary book.

Re: Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>were probably a big reason why Spain so quickly supplanted the Aztecs. Maybe, maybe not. It didn't hurt that the Spaniards had powerful biological weapons on their side that decimated [1] the Aztec population. Same as what happened here in the United States with the native population. Had it been the natives spreading new infectious diseases to the arriving europeans, history would probably have been quite differen…

History could have turned out differently, but wouldn't it require other factors to also change? For instance, isn't European colonialism responsible for both the larger number of diseases the explorers had been carrying, but also the higher herd immunity? And that the native's relative isolation led them to be more exposed when confronted with foreign cultures? I guess what I'm asking is, isn't this a little bit of…

The best theory I’ve seen goes as follows. Humans the world over have domesticated like a dozen beasts of burden [1]. Ever. Most of those animals are in the Old World. (The New World just had llamas.)

Domesticated beasts of burden mean (a) higher productivity, i.e. cities i.e. proximity between people and (b) proximity between people and animals. The latter provides a vector for novel diseases to form. The former provides a vector for them to spread.

The boost to productivity, meanwhile, meant the Old World had the resources to venture out. It’s more challenging to bootstrap a complex technological society with just alpaca.

[1] https://www.thoughtco.com/animal-domestication-table-dates-p...

Post reply on HN