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Ask HN: Why do managers get paid more than individual contributors?

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Re: Ask HN: Why do managers get paid more than individual contributors?

#21

They often don't. But when they do, it's because of leveraged impact. If I'm a 10x engineer, then that's a huge individual contribution. However, if I'm a 2x manager with 12 reports, then my impact is greater than a 10x engineer. That is to say, if I can make my 12 reports twice as productive, then that's a huge benefit to the org. If I'm a 2x director with 4 managers reporting to me, then that 2x compounds through e…

the work of a manager isn't to 2x its team. The work of the manager is to maintain the structure and order. I.e. to fill the role of glue/bone/wood and may be pipes with some direction-based filtration of content.

>why incompetence is so pervasive in management.

Technical incompetence seems to help in being a successful order maintainer. That way you don't get easily swayed by technical reasons away from the "right way" that the higher-ups lead you on. Natural selection in management doesn't behave kindly toward managers questioning technical merits of the decisions flushed down ... err ... communicated from the higher levels.

Re: Ask HN: Why do managers get paid more than individual contributors?

#22

Well let's start by noting that there are exceptions to this rule. A principal engineer in a couple companies I've worked for was in a higher bracket than almost all the managerial levels. Next let's explore the ideal case. An engineer is very good at using tools to accomplish work. A good manager should be very good at using/making/helping humans accomplish work. Totally different skill set, but not easy, and potent…

Your machiavellian take holds water, in my opinion.

If managers were paid less than (or just as much as) their directs, what would change?

Re: Ask HN: Why do managers get paid more than individual contributors?

#23
post #12

Cause handling people and their issues is about 5000 times harder than handling code. Your code doesn't get cancer, run away with a coworker, go bankrupt, have opinions, lie, steal, needs to be told how to use a restroom, needs protection when it's layoff season etc etc etc

> Cause handling people and their issues is about 5000 times harder than handling code

I'm of the opinion that any job is super hard if you apply yourself.

Re: Ask HN: Why do managers get paid more than individual contributors?

#24

Well let's start by noting that there are exceptions to this rule. A principal engineer in a couple companies I've worked for was in a higher bracket than almost all the managerial levels. Next let's explore the ideal case. An engineer is very good at using tools to accomplish work. A good manager should be very good at using/making/helping humans accomplish work. Totally different skill set, but not easy, and potent…

Your machiavellian take holds water, in my opinion. If managers were paid less than (or just as much as) their directs, what would change?

Probably more IC's that stick to what they're doing. The point of a manager receiving higher pay is that they (generally) have the same experience as most IC's, but can be a productivity multiplier thanks to people skills.

Re: Ask HN: Why do managers get paid more than individual contributors?

#25
Lets break it down a bit.

# Ideally you don't want managers to write code since that would set them on a path where they can get preoccupied with stuff which is not the big picture.

# Managers tend to see the big picture and direct the team on its course with good people management skills. This is one of the most significant role in the organization.

# Measuring the importance of an individual to an organization based on his/her pay package is not the right median.

# Most software engineers are pampered a lot unlike other profession so they tend to have an inflated ego to assume they are worth more than almost everyone. Just having an ability to hard labor a building construction never meant the person is the most significant!. Not an ideal comparison but hope it drives home the point.

In most cases people envisioning bigger picture can get paid more but that is in no way an unfair thing.

Re: Ask HN: Why do managers get paid more than individual contributors?

#26
post #13

In good companies there are two career paths: - a management track - an IC (individual contributor) track There are different levels on the different tracks, and each is paid for that level. A super experienced IC will be paid more than a junior manager, and vice versa. So it doesn't have to be true that a manager earns more than an IC, and for example many ICs at Google are paid millions of $$, much much more than t…

Great post. From my experience, becoming an IC that is "paid millions of $$" is akin to being Kobe Bryant [EG you prototyped google earth or wrote swift]. Most will never become Kobe Bryant - I don't care how many basketballs you toss in the air. But, IMHO becoming a highly paid manager just takes experience, a smile and luck (placed on the right team).

>But, IMHO becoming a highly paid manager just takes experience, a smile and luck (placed on the right team).

like happening to be the manager of that guy who wrote swift.

Re: Ask HN: Why do managers get paid more than individual contributors?

#27
post #19

Manager jobs are significantly more stressful and harder to train for than individual contributors. And my personal opinion is that good managers are much rarer than individual contributors.

It really depends on how much the manager throws themselves into their work. I’ve had a few really good ones that I felt were actually helpful and the vast majority that just go to meetings and completely fail to isolate their team from chaos.

Re: Ask HN: Why do managers get paid more than individual contributors?

#28
This doesn't always happen but when it does, assuming economic efficiency and perfect information, there are some good reasons:

* Managers' actions take effect across the entire team, and therefore having a 1x manager vs a 1.1x manager on a 10 person team is like if any individual (assuming evenness in the team) goes from 1x to 2x.

* It is harder to find someone who can effectively manage human beings than someone who can effectively solve technical problems. Mildly supportive evidence is the percentage of people who complain about their managers vs. the percentage of people who complain about how hard the problems they have to solve are. Your maximum attainable compensation is the minimum of the value you provide and the cost to replace you, and good managers are rare.

* In practice, few people are pure managers - they also solve technical problems. Often, they will participate in architecture questions, but not implementation. If they do so, their technical contributions are also on a lever.

However, there are secondary factors too:

* Managers tend to have more experience. More experience, until a point, leads to higher compensation because successful experienced people are rarer

* The depth to which humans perceive contribution to success is limited. A CEO will see whether his engineering division is effectively delivering value and reward or punish its organizational leader. Likewise all the way down the chain. This is leverage in terms of responsibility and risk.

But the short form of my theory is that where it's true, it's often because they deliver comparatively higher value to the organization.

If it's true, a consequence would be that the organizations that have a culture of self-organization and alignment will have managers that command smaller multipliers solely on their management skills while those whose members require substantial management (for mediation, communication, or prioritization) will place a premium on managers.

Re: Ask HN: Why do managers get paid more than individual contributors?

#29
post #16

First, this is not strictly true; many senior ICs get paid more than managers, and the comparison between manager-track job levels and IC-track job levels varies at different companies. Part of it is that good managers act as an umbrella for their reports and keep unnecessarily distracting or stressful issues from taking up their time. But that means the manager is dealing with that stress instead. Part of it is that…

> First, this is not strictly true; many senior ICs get paid more than managers, and the comparison between manager-track job levels and IC-track job levels varies at different companies.

Are those ICs getting paid more than their immediate manager?

Re: Ask HN: Why do managers get paid more than individual contributors?

#30

Well let's start by noting that there are exceptions to this rule. A principal engineer in a couple companies I've worked for was in a higher bracket than almost all the managerial levels. Next let's explore the ideal case. An engineer is very good at using tools to accomplish work. A good manager should be very good at using/making/helping humans accomplish work. Totally different skill set, but not easy, and potent…

I would go even further. Why would you NOT expect the asymmetric power relationship to logically lead to increased compensation?
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