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Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In an Underslept State'

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141–150 of 186 posts

Re: Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In an Underslept State'

#141
> "Unfortunately the current set or classes of sleeping pills that we have do not produce naturalistic sleep. So they are all a broad set of chemicals that we call the sedative hypnotics, and sedation is not sleep, it's very different. It doesn't give you the restorative natural benefits of sleep. ... If you look at the electrical signature of sleep that you have when you're taking those medications, it's not the same as a normal night of sleep."

Most of the literature I've read reports otherwise, that Zolpidem actually can increase the quality of your sleep. Of course, it's not without it's disadvantages as well.

Re: Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In an Underslept State'

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a sleep scientist but it sounds pretty logical to me. If I'm chopping vegetables for dinner and I cut myself with the knife, it takes time to heal. But chances are it's never going to be completely healed. There will be a scar. If I cut myself with a knife then for the next few days I don't cut myself with a knife, the wound will heal but the scar will remain. I can't cut myself one day and then go several da…

We actually do celebrate athletes' physical sacrifices. Think marathon runners pushing across the finish line, or a running back selling out for the touchdown. It's probably something wired into us as human beings. Just a side note. Your analogy is on point and helpful.

> We actually do celebrate athletes' physical sacrifices.

I'm not certain that's quite accurate. It seems that what's celebrated are their accomplishments and "sacrifices" in the sense of effort and self-denial, but not injuries.

The sentiment around brain injuries that professional boxers (and, more recently, American Football players) suffer from isn't what I would characterize as celebratory, for example.

Even temporary injuries can be met with disdain by fans of team sports, as it could take the whole team out of the running for that entire season.

However, I'm far from intimately familiar with athletics, so I'd genuinely welcome being shown counter-examples.

Re: Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In an Underslept State'

#143
post #3

> Sleep is not like the bank, so you can't accumulate a debt and then try and pay it off at a later point in time. And the reason is this: We know that if I were to deprive you of sleep for an entire night — take away eight hours — and then in the subsequent night I give you all of the sleep that you want, however much you wish to consume, you never get back all that you lost. You will sleep longer, but you will neve…

This might not be true... http://www.health.com/sleep/sleeping-in-weekend

Even that article says that, though catching up on the weekend is better than not trying to catch up at all, consistency (i.e. not falling behind in the first place) is best.

Re: Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In an Underslept State'

#144

> "Unfortunately the current set or classes of sleeping pills that we have do not produce naturalistic sleep. So they are all a broad set of chemicals that we call the sedative hypnotics, and sedation is not sleep, it's very different. It doesn't give you the restorative natural benefits of sleep. ... If you look at the electrical signature of sleep that you have when you're taking those medications, it's not the sam…

I'll likely do my own more in depth looking.. but, in the meantime, do you recall if this was true for the other "Z-drugs" (zaleplon, zopiclone/eszopiclone)? Is there any convenient summary or meta-analysis you could link?

Re: Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In an Underslept State'

#145

In the UK we have a fantastic service called Radio 4 which has remarkable sleep-inducing powers. Much better than any narcotic sleep aid, in my experience. Podcasts also work well, in my experience.

Podcast pro tip: listen on 0.8x speed. Everything becomes so dreamy and sleepy sounding.

Re: Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In an Underslept State'

#146
post #86

You can be in an "underslept state" even if you get 8 hrs a night. I usually am. I snore. Most of the time and very loudly. So do maybe a billion other people. It negatively impacts the quality and quantity of your sleep (and that of the people around you). It can greatly increase the risk of a whole slew of nasty diseases. And yet there is no cure and no effective treatment. As near as I can tell, no one is working…

There are tons of gimmicks and gadgets which promise to help, but none of them do, not really.

This is a very broad statement, and it's very very misleading.

There is, today, "an effective solution" for many people. You mentioned it. Continuous Positive Airway Pressure, CPAP for short. It has helped literally millions of people to get better sleep. I'm one of them. I was a very heavy snorer before CPAP. I don't snore any more. Not at all.

The reason you don't see great emphasis on "magic potion to fix it" is because, for many people, CPAP does fix both snoring and obstructive sleep apnea. Yes, it's a gadget, but it's the exact opposite of gimmicks.

CPAP costs perhaps $1000 for a machine that lasts 5 years. Consumables (masks, hoses, etc) are perhaps $200 per year. That's retail price. Insurance coverage should reduce those numbers considerably.

Today's CPAP machines produce a daily report that shows, literally breath by breath, how you sleep. By analyzing your breathing the machine is able to adjust its operation to keep you from snoring and to keep your body from doing respiratory arousals (which is where you partially awaken to restart your breathing when snoring closes your airway).

Unfortunately, CPAP is inexpensive. Absurdly inexpensive. That's why doctors don't really give a shit about it. Yes, you can get an ENT to put you through a sleep test, and then prescribe a machine. And then, that's it. Problem solved. The ENT will see you perhaps once a year for monitoring. Your yearly expense is under $400 (as mentioned above), so the CPAP manufacturers aren't going to send doctors on free trips to conferences in Hawaii to discuss things. They aren't going to pay the doctors large honorariums to give quick BS presentations before everyone heads out for 36 holes of golf at the resort.

For some people CPAP works out of the box, but for others it needs to be fine tuned. There's really no money in this, so the medical establishment has set a criteria of AHI So people need to put a little effort into fine tuning their therapy. Mostly by adjusting CPAP settings. But also by changing masks, changing sleeping positions, changing bedtime routine, etc. My AHI is 0.0 on most nights, because I was willing to do my own tweaks without help from the medical establishment.

And I've seen measurable, quantitative improvement. For example, before CPAP my hematocrit level (red blood cells) was above normal. My body was producing more cells to help transport as much oxygen as it could from my lungs. Since CPAP, my hematocrit has dropped steadily and is now in the normal range. That's just one simple measurement. Many people have dramatic improvement with much more serious health problems.

There is a wonderful piece of free open source software. It's called SleepyHead. It reads data from the SD card in your CPAP machine and produces beautiful breath-by-breath charts. Highly recommended.

Two places to go for CPAP support are cpaptalk[0] and apneaboard[1]. There are people willing to help interpret your SleepyHead results and help you tweak your therapy. They are better than probably 99% of doctors, who, once you have a CPAP machine, have no financial incentive to continue to care about you.

[0] http://cpaptalk.com/CPAP-Sleep-Apnea-Forum.html [1] http://www.apneaboard.com/forums/Forum-Main-Apnea-Board-Foru...

Re: Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In an Underslept State'

#147
post #130

Articles like this scares me greatly. About 2 years ago, I went about 3 weeks with maybe less than 3 hours of sleep. I am sure it is hard to believe, even I can't believe it myself, it was a crazy experience, where my mind was just passed the point of exhaustion that I could not feel tiredness at all. After that my sleeping have never been the same, went through almost a 2 years of waking up every 3 hours or so. It's…

What caused the initial deprivation?

I don't know. Just one day, it started it. I had some client work that was overdue and some stress at work place. But it was nothing major.

Re: Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In an Underslept State'

#148
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course they are. You'll learn less in your sleep deprived states, Which are days you aren't going to get back. Your sleep deprived self will also be better at creating tech debt, which takes away time from the future.

That is an odd perspective. That's like saying that the damage from a twisted ankle is permanent, since you'll never get back the two days of lost activity. From that point of view, all injuries are permanent.

> all injuries are permanent

Most significant injuries I've sustained since my early 20s have not let me completely forget them, in spite of them being "fully healed".

Re: Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In an Underslept State'

#149

Articles like this scares me greatly. About 2 years ago, I went about 3 weeks with maybe less than 3 hours of sleep. I am sure it is hard to believe, even I can't believe it myself, it was a crazy experience, where my mind was just passed the point of exhaustion that I could not feel tiredness at all. After that my sleeping have never been the same, went through almost a 2 years of waking up every 3 hours or so. It's…

That does sound horrible :(.

I don't think waking up every 3 hours or so is necessarily that bad if you can get back to sleep easily, since that is about the length of a sleep cycle (they get shorter later in the night). Although in your case it might be a symptom of your brain being more active at night and you might not be getting enough deep sleep when it happens.

I've found finding stuff to help stay asleep has been easier than finding stuff to help get to sleep. The articles always talk about sleep drugs being more harmful than helpful, but I think that is mostly stuff that helps you get to sleep (and even those might sometimes be better than not taking them, especialy for brief usage). Certainly I've found a few things that help me stay asleep and significantly improve my sleep quality.

If you have trouble again here are a few things you could try. Short list in order of longer description below (NR = not recommended for various reasons even though it did help, see longer desciption for details): baclofen, phenibut (NR), l-citrulline, l-theanine, magnesium (NR), rosemary extract (NR) or lemon balm (NR), taurine (NR), uridine monophosphate, melatonin patch.

I've found baclofen to be very helpful with staying asleep and getting better quality sleep. I showed some studies I found on pubmed to my primary care doctor who was willing to prescribe it. The downside is that tolerance builds exceptionally quickly and it is generally a good idea to not take it for at least two days a week. I've tried more complicated dosing but 10mg every other day works well (10mg for two days and then a day off works ok too but any longer than that will need two days off to reset in my experience). You can't go up or down by more than 10mg per day (and shouldn't go down by 10mg multiple days in a row) or risk seizures and when I am in a particularly disrupted state it only helps stay asleep for maybe two days at a particular dose. Lately my sleep has been less disrupted even when I don't take it and I've been using for maybe a week or more at 10mg and it still seems to improve my sleep quality.

Phenibut is similar, halfway between baclofen and gabapentin (which I've heard can also help sleep, although I have never tried it since the side effects seem worse than with baclofen). Phenibut has an overlaping set of side effects with baclofen, possibly a somewhat lower seizure risk but some people find it highly addictive. I also suspect it may cause retinal taurine depletion (that leads to permanant retinal damage that is not obvious at first) with heavy continuous use (although that wouldn't be very helpful for sleep since it has the same issue as baclofen). It is available without a prescription and I've found it works better for sleep than baclofen but it causes my light therapy visor to hurt my eyes even on the low setting (it normally does some on high but not on low). 10mg baclofen then 600mg phenibut then a day off seems to work well for me. However, phenibut affects brain dopamine (another fragile part of the body) more than baclofen so between that and retinal issues and the potential for addiciton I would highly recommend just using baclofen.

L-citrulline is another one that I have found very helpful, although I haven't used it as much. It seems to have conflicted with another medication I am on (that I think was building up to too high levels at the time) to cause easy bleeding and a bright pink rash. After lowering the dose of that medication it hasn't caused trouble, but keep an eye out for such things if you try it. I add 3g l-citrulline powder to almond milk at around 6 or 6:30pm when aiming to be in bed at 11pm. It tastes good so you don't necessarily need much to go with it and taking it with water should be fine too. I haven't tried the more common citrulline mallate, so no idea if that would work. I initially tried it because my circulation is not very good so that could be related to why it helps me (or possibly not, nitric oxide and glutathione are sleep promoting substances). I get the "doctor's best" brand l-citrulline powder from vitacost. It is fairly expensive (you can get baclofen for less even if you pay the full cost). N-acetyl-l-cysteine did not seem to do anything for me taken with or without the citrulline.

100mg L-theanine also helps me stay asleep, although not as much as other things and I haven't used it that much. I had an asthma reaction when using it with phenibut, which is another reason I worry about phenibut (although I haven't used it with baclofen so it is possible the same could happen). It is inexpensive and widely available. 400mg or more magnesium is very effective for me but makes me too tired the next day and less doesn't seem to help my sleep. But I'm not sure how common that is so it might be worth a try.

I don't think I've found anything else in typical herbal sleep formulas to be helpful at all except rosmarinic acid (rosmary extract or lemon balm leaves) that helped quite a bit when I first took it but quickly stopped helping and took several months off to have an effect again. It might also potentially cause retinal taurine depletion if you use it for too long, so overall it is not a great option but an occasional lemon balm tea might be helpful (the rosemary extract is also a great flavor with soy or almond milk). Taurine helps me stay asleep but the sulfur makes it not a great choice for extended use if you have digestive issues (and maybe even if you don't).

Another thing that has helped me is 150mg sublingual uridine monophosphate. It seemed to have a circadian effect as well when I first used it (I have a non-24 hour circadian rhythm), but less so after using it for a while. I've lately taken it about 7pm when aiming for 11pm bed time and that seems to work well, although right before bed can work too. It isn't that well known but has been studied some and a different form and much higher dose has been FDA approved as a prescription drug for a couple of conditions. There is some chance it may cause or speed the growth of cancer, although this hasn't been noticed in humans taking the much higher dose yet to my knowledge and hopefully is unlikely at 150mg. The only reputable source I know of for uridine monophsphate powder is nootropicsdepot.com.

While oral or sublingual melatonin wakes me up at night, the first thing I found that really helped me stay asleep was a melatonin patch. The first place I got it from went out of business and the last time I looked the only place I could find that I was willing to buy from was "Respro Labs" on Amazon, but they are quite expensive (I get the 10mg, cut them in quarters, and use one or two quarters a night; the backing is a bit annoying to cut). Also, they last longer than 8 hours (previous patches did too) and make me really tired the next day if I forget to take them off in the morning, which happens quite a bit. But it is still a decent option and I wish they were more widely available and not so expensive.

Re: Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In an Underslept State'

#150
Just a word of warning to any insomniacs on here thinking of reading Matthew Walkers book, Why We Sleep: it is probably one of the least helpful books I have ever read in terms of helping you sleep well. It mostly explains the many ways you are damaging your health by not sleeping well, and reading it while I had insomnia just made me anxious and made it more difficult to sleep. The one good thing that came out of reading it was a suggestion for CBT for sleep, and I would highly recommend that as that did actually help me sleep.
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