Live data from Hacker News

Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital

sciencemag.org

91–100 of 322 posts

Re: Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital

#91

They dismiss Cortez and his men as exaggerating the number of skulls when they claimed 130,000, but if you start calculating how many are in the image of the reconstruction in the article, it's easily close to 100,000. This reminds me of how the academic consensus was that child sacrifice in Carthage was merely Roman propaganda, until they dug up the massive infant necropolis near the temple to Moloch (yes, that Molo…

Wikipedia cities a number of sources for between 130K and 60K:

> One conquistador, Andrés de Tapia, was given the task of counting the skulls on the "tzompantli" at Tenochtitlan and estimated that there were 136,000 skulls on it.[17] However, based on numbers given by Taipa and Fray Diego Durán, Bernard Ortiz de Montellano[18] has calculated that there were at most 60,000 skulls on the "Hueyi Tzompantli" (Great Skullrack) of Tenochtitlan. The "Hueyi Tzompantli" consisted of a massive masonry platform composed of “thirty long steps” measuring fully 60 meters in length by 30 meters wide at its summit. Atop of the aforementioned platform was erected an equally formidable wooden palisade and scaffolding consisting of between 60 and 70 massive uprights or timbers woven together with an impressive constellation of horizontal cross beams upon which were suspended the tens of thousands of decapitated human heads once impaled thereon.[19] There were at least five more skull racks in Tenochtitlan but by all accounts they were much smaller.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzompantli#Aztec

Re: Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital

#92
post #83
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contextually conflating capital punishment with ritual is I think wrong.

It's fundamentally a philosophical question. I think it's a surprisingly insightful observation.

One is to appease "the gods". The other is to protect society (and punish the evil) {as they saw it}. Quite different.

Re: Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital

#93

Threads that are respectful, interesting and insightful like this are why I adore HN. Please don’t ever change. That aside, As a historian, I think our skepticism of primary sources has gone way way way to far. Plutarch is ignored, because Roman. Cortez was ignored because Spanish. Do they have reason to exaggerate? Sure and they at times do. But the archeological evidence on both Carthage and Cortez was really clear…

>>were probably a big reason why Spain so quickly supplanted the Aztecs.

Maybe, maybe not. It didn't hurt that the Spaniards had powerful biological weapons on their side that decimated [1] the Aztec population. Same as what happened here in the United States with the native population. Had it been the natives spreading new infectious diseases to the arriving europeans, history would probably have been quite different.

Imagine going to a new land and upon contact with the natives a sizable portion of your people always dies off while the natives stay healthy and at full fighting strength. And even the ones that do not die off still get so sick that it completely incapacitates them for some time and hence unable to fight. They'd be very vulnerable to native attacks.

The news would spread like wild fire in Europe that everybody that travels to the new world dies because of sorcery or what not. Yep, history could have turned out very differently indeed.

[1]http://blogs.plos.org/publichealth/2013/07/30/guest-post-wha...

This is the relevant part:

>>When Hernando Cortes and his army conquered Mexico starting in 1519, there were roughly about 25 million people living in what is now Mexico. A hundred years later, after a series of epidemics decimated the local population, perhaps as few as 1.2 million natives survived. Records confirm there was a smallpox epidemic in 1519 and 1520, immediately after the Europeans arrived, killing between 5 and 8 million people<<

Re: Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital

#94

Threads that are respectful, interesting and insightful like this are why I adore HN. Please don’t ever change. That aside, As a historian, I think our skepticism of primary sources has gone way way way to far. Plutarch is ignored, because Roman. Cortez was ignored because Spanish. Do they have reason to exaggerate? Sure and they at times do. But the archeological evidence on both Carthage and Cortez was really clear…

> these incidents were probably a big reason why Spain so quickly supplanted the Aztecs

yes. two sides to the Mezoamerican practice of human sacrifice.

the Aztecs carried out the sacrifices, but thousands of people from other local groups were the victims. and one must wonder how enthusiastic they were about the practice.

it's not so hard to see how the Spanish found local allies, initially, in their fight against the Aztecs.

Re: Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital

#95
post #2

That rendering of the Templo Mayor really evokes a sense of existential dread in me...it’s one thing to see something like that in a video game or horror movie, but knowing it was real is deeply unsettling.

Ahhh..the good ole days. Articles like this always speak of these acts with almost a sense of awe or reverence. Sorry, but these societies were some of the most disturbing and violent ever and I find this almost giddy excitement over human sacrifice to be very off-putting.

Seriously.

The first thing I found myself thinking while reading the article was, what was the appropriate response to a society like that? If you’re part of a 16th century expedition, and you’ve come across a nightmare society like this, what’s the right thing to do?

I’m not so quick to dismiss “conquer the country, ban human sacrifice, pave over the temples.” It might not be the worst option. :/

Re: Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital

#96
post #77
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oxford and others released a paper in 2014 I'm familiar with the Oxford research. It's not conclusive and I don't think most archaeologists have signed on. We'll see how it holds up over time. Even if you accept Oxford, it's still the case that child sacrifice, if it did take place, was rare and reserved only for the very wealthy. The idea of Carthaginians all gathering in a stadium and hurling children into a pit…

It was only moderate sensible levels of child sacrifice!

[deleted]

Re: Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital

#97
post #46

Are we sure it's really all human sacrifice and not just an ossuary? For example a major tourist attraction underneath Paris is the The Catacombs where you can walk through tunnels paved with the skulls of over 6 million people. It's an amazing sight but would be extremely creepy without the context of a huge modern city above. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catacombs_of_Paris

i think maybe one bit of evidence against it being merely an ossuary is the large holes in the sides of the skulls, useful for inserting a pole.

of course, that is not the last word. but, it's consistent with other evidence that large wooden poles bearing multiple skulls did exist.

Re: Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital

#98

They dismiss Cortez and his men as exaggerating the number of skulls when they claimed 130,000, but if you start calculating how many are in the image of the reconstruction in the article, it's easily close to 100,000. This reminds me of how the academic consensus was that child sacrifice in Carthage was merely Roman propaganda, until they dug up the massive infant necropolis near the temple to Moloch (yes, that Molo…

As a literary reader of the bible, I noticed that there are literally one hundred different passages in the bible where God says that he absolutely does not want his followers to sacrifice children to him or condemns other religions for this practice. https://www.openbible.info/topics/human_sacrifice That they had to repeat it over and over again gives me the impression that this practice was disturbingly widespread…

Infanticide was really really common- it was basically late stage abortion. The unfair price for this practice was ostracizing those who did the deed. Whores and Priests where the "wicked" ones, while the rest of humanity just closed its eyes and pretended to not see whats was going on.

Re: Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital

#99

This article doesn't specifically mention cannibalism, but in my twenties I read a book that posited that "the lamb" of Christianity being a symbol of peace, as well as the Hindu reverence for the cow, were based on their ability to provide food security because they are grazers who are able to turn grass into protein. Grass is not a human food source. So this means they don't compete for the same food sources we do.…

Why not eat insects for protein? Also nuts and beans.

you're totally right. they actually did. insects and beans are traditional foods in Mexico. and corn and beans are complementary protein sources.

what's more, the technical process of transforming untreated corn meal into a food humans can digest and extract B vitamins from is one of the many triumphs of ancient Mesoamerican cuisine. they figured out how to do all of this centuries before the Spanish arrived, and i would guess, before human sacrifice attained a massive scale in the Aztec era.

i find it very difficult to believe that cannibalism was nutritionally necessary.

Re: Hundreds of skulls reveal massive scale of human sacrifice in Aztec capital

#100

This article doesn't specifically mention cannibalism, but in my twenties I read a book that posited that "the lamb" of Christianity being a symbol of peace, as well as the Hindu reverence for the cow, were based on their ability to provide food security because they are grazers who are able to turn grass into protein. Grass is not a human food source. So this means they don't compete for the same food sources we do.…

> Grass is not a human food source

maize is a grass. so are wheat and rice.

Post reply on HN