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How We Got to Be So Self-Absorbed: The Long Story

nytimes.com

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Re: How We Got to Be So Self-Absorbed: The Long Story

#31

Post by [deleted] »

throwaway37585 wrote: post #25
dredmorbius wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a marked ... level of association, at the very least, between major parts of the conservative and Rothbardian/Randian Libertarian movements, and straight-up fascist action or ideology. The Daily Beast had an excellent article on this in August, 2017: http://www.thedailybeast.com/the-insidious-libertarian-to-al... Also The New Yorker , "Are Bosses Dictators? | The New Yorker": https://www.newyorker.com/books/p…

Apologies for the long reply in advance. Due to a shortage of time (don't we all wish for more of it?), I'll summarize and address the first article you linked to. Paragraph 1: Alt-right figure A identifies as libertarian. Alt-right figure B identifies as a former libertarian. Paragraph 2: Alt-right figures C and D identify as libertarian. Alt-right figure E kicked out of libertarian conference. This last example see…

[deleted]

Re: How We Got to Be So Self-Absorbed: The Long Story

#32

Post by DisruptiveDave »

asdfman123 wrote: post #5

"There was always a dark side to the Human Potential Movement. If a positive attitude and a sense of self-worth are what matters for success, then failure is always your own fault." I always thought my alma mater, Stanford, was backwards about students suffering from depression for exactly that reason. Promoting positivity is great, unless it means ostracizing and shaming people who are already suffering. It was hard…

Positivity is the easiest shortcut to dissatisfaction and suffering.

EDIT: When positivity is divorced from addressing reality, bad things occur. The majority of positivity pushing I've experienced falls into this category. Happiness != willful ignorance.

Re: How We Got to Be So Self-Absorbed: The Long Story

#33

Post by coldtea »

asdfman123 wrote: post #5

"There was always a dark side to the Human Potential Movement. If a positive attitude and a sense of self-worth are what matters for success, then failure is always your own fault." I always thought my alma mater, Stanford, was backwards about students suffering from depression for exactly that reason. Promoting positivity is great, unless it means ostracizing and shaming people who are already suffering. It was hard…

>If you change one factor, you can easily change other ones without meaning to.

AKA "second order effects"

Re: How We Got to Be So Self-Absorbed: The Long Story

#34

Post by coldtea »

throwaway37585 wrote: post #15
pnathan wrote: post #13

A ton of weird stuff from that time seems to run through Esalen. I will read this or that history of computing/hippies/etc and boom, Esalen. Strange how influence works. Anyway, beyond that... this is something I've been contemplating for a long time. I would actually agree with the other HN poster that New Thought was a contributing factor. I also locate part of the hyper-individualism at play today in the reaction…

> libertarian fascism What does this mean?

Means Atlas not only shrugging, but wanting to lead and coerce the "sheeple" towards what "he knows" is best...

Re: How We Got to Be So Self-Absorbed: The Long Story

#35

Post by coldtea »

throwaway37585 wrote: post #25
dredmorbius wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a marked ... level of association, at the very least, between major parts of the conservative and Rothbardian/Randian Libertarian movements, and straight-up fascist action or ideology. The Daily Beast had an excellent article on this in August, 2017: http://www.thedailybeast.com/the-insidious-libertarian-to-al... Also The New Yorker , "Are Bosses Dictators? | The New Yorker": https://www.newyorker.com/books/p…

Apologies for the long reply in advance. Due to a shortage of time (don't we all wish for more of it?), I'll summarize and address the first article you linked to. Paragraph 1: Alt-right figure A identifies as libertarian. Alt-right figure B identifies as a former libertarian. Paragraph 2: Alt-right figures C and D identify as libertarian. Alt-right figure E kicked out of libertarian conference. This last example see…

All those ("identifies as X but isn't really") responses bring to mind the "no true Scotchman".

>"Libertarian fascism" is a literal contradiction.

So is war in the name of the "religion of Peace and Love", or being cruel in the name of Christ, or being pro "equality" (like communists) and creating a party elite.

One important aspect of any ideology is not just what it pays lip service to, but how people actually use it, and what it enables its followers to do.

And one common thread in all ideology A is the complain "yeah, X, Y, Z wasn't a REAL A".

Contradictions are the name of the game in all human affairs.

Tons of people chose the most humble public stances purely out of virtue signaling for example (the very opposite of being actually humble), or are "small government" ideologues with very powerful ties and influence in government (which they use to turn towards their private interests).

Re: How We Got to Be So Self-Absorbed: The Long Story

#36

Post by paidleaf »

asdfman123 wrote: post #5

"There was always a dark side to the Human Potential Movement. If a positive attitude and a sense of self-worth are what matters for success, then failure is always your own fault." I always thought my alma mater, Stanford, was backwards about students suffering from depression for exactly that reason. Promoting positivity is great, unless it means ostracizing and shaming people who are already suffering. It was hard…

> It was hard to be there because the highest ideals were positivity and productivity

It's interesting how language/vocabulary changed as well. "I'm upset because I wasn't productive today". When did people get told that their lot in life was to be productive. And who told them to think or talk like that? How did people start to view themselves as machines whose worth is measured by production? Also, where did the "motivation or get motivated" craze come from. All of a sudden, it's "Are you motivated?" or "Get motivated". For what? Why? All of the sudden it's motivation and productivity.

Re: How We Got to Be So Self-Absorbed: The Long Story

#38

Post by brazzledazzle »

matte_black wrote: post #19
brazzledazzle wrote: post #7

The review is worth reading but the conclusion's succinctness struck me: "In other words: If you want self-esteem, earn it."

But then what do you do when you have the self-esteem? What comes next?

Helping other people.

Re: How We Got to Be So Self-Absorbed: The Long Story

#39

Post by AmericanChopper »

asdfman123 wrote: post #5

"There was always a dark side to the Human Potential Movement. If a positive attitude and a sense of self-worth are what matters for success, then failure is always your own fault." I always thought my alma mater, Stanford, was backwards about students suffering from depression for exactly that reason. Promoting positivity is great, unless it means ostracizing and shaming people who are already suffering. It was hard…

What’s wrong with failure being your own fault? The only thing I ever take away from failure is a lesson on how to fail less next time. Finding other things or people to blame failure on is just a barrier to personal growth.

Re: How We Got to Be So Self-Absorbed: The Long Story

#40

Post by grigjd3 »

paidleaf wrote: post #36
asdfman123 wrote: post #5

"There was always a dark side to the Human Potential Movement. If a positive attitude and a sense of self-worth are what matters for success, then failure is always your own fault." I always thought my alma mater, Stanford, was backwards about students suffering from depression for exactly that reason. Promoting positivity is great, unless it means ostracizing and shaming people who are already suffering. It was hard…

> It was hard to be there because the highest ideals were positivity and productivity It's interesting how language/vocabulary changed as well. "I'm upset because I wasn't productive today". When did people get told that their lot in life was to be productive. And who told them to think or talk like that? How did people start to view themselves as machines whose worth is measured by production? Also, where did the "m…

We've been moralizing work in the US at least my whole life.
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