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Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The nature of time

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Re: Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The nature of time

#91
post #78
post #35

Some tangential thoughts: even though I like these popular science (physics, to be precise) books, I have hard times to imagine their writers as a real scientists . Tyson, Greene, Carroll, Kaku, Rovelli... So many writers author so many books about these hey-look!-so-fascinating! things. It looks like a bandwagon and more and more scientists (yes, physicists especially) are getting on it - like they don't have any im…

> humble 2 cents Sadly, not humble, and, from my point of view, uninformed, that is, exactly what would be expected from an otherwise uninformed reader of the newspaper articles about the topics touched, especially from one not understanding how science actually works. In reality, the "failed" fulfillment of some expectations when the best experiments up to now are performed is also what advances our knowledge, great…

Your post kind of rambles on and fails to address the point that OP is making: Physics is, in fact, stuck. It's been almost 100 years since the initial clash between classic mechanics and quantum theory, and how much closer are we to unification?

And you take an extremely condescending tone while addressing OP's lack of humility while making statements attacking him for "especially from one not understanding how science actually works."

How does science actually work? Are we supposed to follow Popper? Or Kuhn? Or Feyerabend? Should we go with logical positivism or empiricism?

Re: Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The nature of time

#93
post #91
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> humble 2 cents Sadly, not humble, and, from my point of view, uninformed, that is, exactly what would be expected from an otherwise uninformed reader of the newspaper articles about the topics touched, especially from one not understanding how science actually works. In reality, the "failed" fulfillment of some expectations when the best experiments up to now are performed is also what advances our knowledge, great…

Your post kind of rambles on and fails to address the point that OP is making: Physics is, in fact, stuck. It's been almost 100 years since the initial clash between classic mechanics and quantum theory, and how much closer are we to unification? And you take an extremely condescending tone while addressing OP's lack of humility while making statements attacking him for "especially from one not understanding how scie…

> Physics is, in fact, stuck

I'm trying to explain that it is not "stuck" in the sense in which the casual readers tend to perceive it. The scientists actually have what to do, and will have what to do, no problem with that. It's just that it's harder to get the budget for the kinds of investigations that extend the area of our knowledge. And that some "pet hypotheses" of some scientists remained unconfirmed.

What is currently written in the news about is that some specific hypotheses that intended to "deduct" what can be measured by the most advanced experiments humanity ever done weren't confirmed (or even more exactly, not most obviously confirmed) once the said experiments are made.

But that doesn't devalue the work done in making the hypotheses or the experiments themselves.

Or if I have to explain you "like you're five":

- For Newton to be able to make a theoretical "breakthrough" in 1700 the actual experiments before him were needed to provide all the facts from which he was able to develop his theory. Moreover, the conditions of stability in the dissemination and accessibility of the results of the experiments were needed.

- The same goes for Einstein. All the work of science between 1700 and 1915 was actually needed to make Einstein's "breakthrough," including the famous 1887 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelson%E2%80%93Morley_exper... which also didn't "confirm" the expectations of the most of the scientists of that time.

- That experiment was really immense breakthrough itself: the principles of it are even used to measure the gravitational waves today, which was achieved for the first time in 2015.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gravitational_wave_obs...

- But our discovery of the principles of electromagnetic radiation also made in 19th century was necessary too.

- In short, science needs the experiments, needs a lot of approaches from the different sides before some "breakthrough" happens and even "not confirming" expectations is a necessary part of the process.

- And even not having a new "breakthrough" of the kind the Einstein's was or of the kind of our quantum physics discoveries is also part of the process. The nature doesn't "have" to have "more unifying" laws than the ones that we already have, at least not at the level reachable by our technological limits. The nature simply is. We can learn more only by pushing the limits, making even more advanced experiments.

- At the time the experiments with the particles started, the "expectations" were exactly the opposite than now: then producing some new particles "wasn't expected." (E.g. around the middle of the 20th century the famous quip of one scientist was "who ordered that?" for the newly discovered particle -- it wasn't expected by the hypotheses of the time). Now some are "disappointed" that even newer particles don't "easily" appear. Well that is what it is. Support the science, learn how it really "works" from the actual history of actual discoveries, and if you aren't able to understand enough the discoveries themselves, do spend more energy on that before you make some claims. There are too many wrong "explanations" in the circulation, and many of those even have an agenda to be such.

Re: Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The nature of time

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is hardly casting doubt on the nature of (human) death. This is purely a question about quantum mechanics, I'd say. On a side note, I fail to see how the experimenter is supposed to survive with probability 1 in Everett's many-worlds interpretation and thus be able to distinguish the latter from the Copenhagen interpretation. Yes, there will be one world where he survives but in the "vast majority" of worlds he…

The idea is that everybody else dies with certainty, from your observation point, but you yourself can't, because the denominator of the probability fraction consists only of those futures where you exist. It happens to be a vivid idea to me, because a long time ago I read a short story that was more fantasy/horror than science fiction, but resembled it a little in spirit. It was about a kid in a small town who disco…

> and from then on, people stopped dying. Which turned out to not be a blessing.

This bit seems very close to Saramago's novel Death with Interruptions [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_with_Interruptions

Re: Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The nature of time

#95
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not so clear, because you see, that is another question. This is why we need to define things very explicitly and then accept the implications of those definitions or we’ll never get anywhere. Now that you accepted that there is a paradox in the original question (“is there life after death?”) you reformulated it in a way the paradox is no longer present and your meaning is less ambiguous: “Is there something not phy…

If we take the following questions: P: "Is there life after death?" Q: "Is X the same as not-X?" Then you could argue that question P (and all "metaphysical" questions) amounts to or really has the structure of something like question Q, and that it's therefore paradoxical, trivial, or uninteresting because the answer is obviously "no" ("by definition", as you point out). I would disagree for the following reasons: F…

It seems to me you are more interested in the question than in the answer. You agree with me, and then spend two paragraphs justifying why you don't want to agree with me because somehow asking the wrong question still has value. It may have historical value, poetical value, emotional value, and that of course is valuable. But as to the question itself, when everyone means something else either the question is malformed or the language is useless.

And it is not so obvious what they actually mean as everyone interprets it in a different way. Some people mean still existing in this "plane", some in some other reality, some mean to be reborn, some mean to trascend, some to reincarnate, some a mix of two, or of all.

If we keep pretending the question is right when it obviously lacks meaning and all the information necessary to be able to answer it we are never gonna find out.

But again, that is what some people want, for some things to always remain a mystery, so they ask paradoxical questions.

"What was I like before I was born?"

Re: Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The nature of time

#96

Time could be composed of tiny frames(quanta) of time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronon https://archive.org/details/arxiv-hep-th0106273

And what do those "time quanta" represent? "Time of light traversing the radius of an electron", really? Isn't that just another measurement device based on light quanta and distance?

Re: Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The nature of time

#97
post #82
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is interesting, but it is also an answer to a different question. The question is "are there any blue reds?" not "can we see in some circumstances reds as blue?".

I thought the question was asking whether there are any reds that are blue. Edit: This isn't as clear as it could be if I was better with GIMP, but it should illustrate the idea. https://imgur.com/a/cRWhdTJ

The question is "are" there any blue reds. In other words, regardless of who is watching it, or if anyone at all.

The question is not "can we perceive" some reds as blue.

Re: Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The nature of time

#98

Time could be composed of tiny frames(quanta) of time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronon https://archive.org/details/arxiv-hep-th0106273

And what do those "time quanta" represent? "Time of light traversing the radius of an electron", really? Isn't that just another measurement device based on light quanta and distance?

No. That "time quanta" represents the smallest value Δ such that it doesn't make sense to take about events which happened between t and t+Δ. Δ may not be a constant though like Planck's constant.

Re: Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The nature of time

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what do those "time quanta" represent? "Time of light traversing the radius of an electron", really? Isn't that just another measurement device based on light quanta and distance?

No. That "time quanta" represents the smallest value Δ such that it doesn't make sense to take about events which happened between t and t+Δ. Δ may not be a constant though like Planck's constant.

The shortest distance between two events in space and time, when there are time quanta, then there must be space quanta as well.

Re: Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The nature of time

#100
post #97
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought the question was asking whether there are any reds that are blue. Edit: This isn't as clear as it could be if I was better with GIMP, but it should illustrate the idea. https://imgur.com/a/cRWhdTJ

The question is "are" there any blue reds. In other words, regardless of who is watching it, or if anyone at all. The question is not "can we perceive" some reds as blue.

There are no blues or reds at all if nobody is watching. Color is a purely perceptual phenomenon relying on properties of the eye and brain.
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