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The myth of revealed preference for suburbs

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Re: The myth of revealed preference for suburbs

#71

Post by xkcd-sucks »

pikma wrote: post #66
rhapsodic wrote: post #47

For entertainment, I like cities better than suburbs. Hands down. At home, I like parking in a driveway better than parking on the street. At home, I like parking in a garage better than parking in a driveway or alley. At home, I like parking in an attached garage better than parking in a detached one. I like living in my own house better than an apartment. I like living in a free-standing house better than a duplex…

It is because the suburban lifestyle has some hidden costs, and in the US those costs tend to be paid equally by everyone. For example, air pollution (both local and greenhouse gases), and road maintenance costs.

On the other hand, with sufficiently low density, things like stormwater/flooding, drinking water, fire control, and pest control work themselves out naturally without complicated infrastructure to manage them

Re: The myth of revealed preference for suburbs

#72

Post by [deleted] »

graeme wrote: post #62
smcameron wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, nobody wants to walk in Houston. AC is required to survive there.

I've been to Cuba. There are old cities in the Spanish style, and new ones (1950s) in the american style. In the spanish cities you can walk comfortably. The buildings are tall enough and near enough to the sidewalk that you can always find shade. And everyone walks on the shaded side of the street. In the american cities the buildings are set back, and there is no shade. People still walk (they're poor), but there a…

[deleted]

Re: The myth of revealed preference for suburbs

#73

Post by Turing_Machine »

imaoreo wrote: post #64
ars wrote: post #25

I suspect that the people wanting "an urban zone", want one without all the drawbacks. Once you include the drawbacks that can not be removed, you will find they are living exactly where they want to live. The kind of analysis in this report is one of those "lying with statistics" things, because I don't think it's measuring what the authors think it's measuring.

care to explain what those drawbacks are?

Let's see:

Drunks/junkies/mentally ill people shitting, pissing, and vomiting everywhere, while verbally (and sometimes physically) abusing the passers-by.

Noise.

Breathing the stench of exhaust fumes, week-old garbage, and someone else's idea of cooking.

Having no place for your children to sit on the grass without worrying about them finding someone's discarded needle or excrement.

Having no space for gardens, hobbies, or gatherings of family and/or friends.

Bad schools with apathetic parents.

The inability to leave personal property unattended for even a moment.

The need to have extensive home security (bars on windows, etc...)

The much higher likelihood that you or one of your loved ones will be mugged, raped, or killed.

Those are just a few that come to mind.

Re: The myth of revealed preference for suburbs

#74

Post by Turing_Machine »

twblalock wrote: post #58
cheeseomlit wrote: post #29

What a load, I've never been to a city that wasn't a disgusting concrete nightmare. God forbid you want to raise kids, say goodbye to playing outside. I'll take my cozy yard and breathable air, thanks

Millions of children grow up in cities (in apartments, no less!) and they turn out just fine.

And millions of them don't.

Educational outcomes, crime (both as victim and perpetrator), and mental health are all worse for those who grew up in cities, and not just slightly worse. Much worse.

Re: The myth of revealed preference for suburbs

#75

Post by TheCoelacanth »

rhapsodic wrote: post #47

For entertainment, I like cities better than suburbs. Hands down. At home, I like parking in a driveway better than parking on the street. At home, I like parking in a garage better than parking in a driveway or alley. At home, I like parking in an attached garage better than parking in a detached one. I like living in my own house better than an apartment. I like living in a free-standing house better than a duplex…

I'm fine with people making different lifestyle choices than me. I just want them to:

1. Not outlaw my preferred lifestyle choices. The vast majority of the country makes it illegal to build walkable urban neighborhoods.

2. Don't make me pay for your lifestyle choices. Car use is heavily subsidized in the US via road and parking infrastructure, laws that require private citizens to build parking at their own expense to be able to build buildings and by car users being able to externalize the cost of their environmental damage.

You are free to live in your preferred type of neighborhood; just let me do the same.

Re: The myth of revealed preference for suburbs

#76

Post by msandford »

exelius wrote: post #20
Isamu wrote: post #2

>If so many people live in suburbs, it must be because that’s what they prefer, right? But the evidence is to the contrary. This article makes its point from the book "Zoned Out" (2005.) Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the argument is that zoning policies make suburban sprawl, not free markets. They argue that if zoning restrictions were lifted and development responded to free market forces, higher density hous…

I would hold up Houston as the counterexample. It has zero zoning policies whatsoever and is one of the most sprawled cities in the country, and everyone lives in low-density single family ranch homes with huge floor plans and drives an hour to work each way. Developers still basically just plop large single-family residential developments on random plots of land with few ways to stop them. In the absence of zoning,…

I have to respectfully disagree as someone who has lived in Houston for more than a few years. The density in Houston is bimodal because the traffic makes commuting so painful.

There are huge numbers of zero lot line 2-4 story townhouses being built within say 5 miles of downtown. 4-6 houses on 1/4 acre so not a lot of room to waste.

And then once you get past say 5-10 miles from downtown the sprawl is undeniable.

But to paint Houston as all sprawl just isn't honest.

Re: The myth of revealed preference for suburbs

#77

Post by TheCoelacanth »

xkcd-sucks wrote: post #71
pikma wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is because the suburban lifestyle has some hidden costs, and in the US those costs tend to be paid equally by everyone. For example, air pollution (both local and greenhouse gases), and road maintenance costs.

On the other hand, with sufficiently low density, things like stormwater/flooding, drinking water, fire control, and pest control work themselves out naturally without complicated infrastructure to manage them

Only at densities much lower than a typical suburb.

Re: The myth of revealed preference for suburbs

#78

Post by jakecopp »

ausvisaissues wrote: post #56
Isamu wrote: post #2

>If so many people live in suburbs, it must be because that’s what they prefer, right? But the evidence is to the contrary. This article makes its point from the book "Zoned Out" (2005.) Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the argument is that zoning policies make suburban sprawl, not free markets. They argue that if zoning restrictions were lifted and development responded to free market forces, higher density hous…

It is also culture that plays a big part. I've lived in very high density housing in Japan (20 floor manshion type apartment) and medium density in US (2 level apartment). Higher density in Japan is much more pleasant due to the culture of being considerate of others. If I have to live in the US, I will choose suburbia for that reason.

How more considerate? Noise wise?

Re: The myth of revealed preference for suburbs

#79

Post by squirrelicus »

Turing_Machine wrote: post #73
imaoreo wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

care to explain what those drawbacks are?

Let's see: Drunks/junkies/mentally ill people shitting, pissing, and vomiting everywhere, while verbally (and sometimes physically) abusing the passers-by. Noise. Breathing the stench of exhaust fumes, week-old garbage, and someone else's idea of cooking. Having no place for your children to sit on the grass without worrying about them finding someone's discarded needle or excrement. Having no space for gardens, hobb…

+1

My favorite part of the suburbs is that my kids are physically incapable of walking or biking to an urban area. When they have grown to acquire the sense to look out for themselves, then they coincidentally will have the freedom (e.g. drivers license) to go to an urban place. Until then, I love that I can let them just go outside without supervision and dick around. American urbanity is just not for families.

Re: The myth of revealed preference for suburbs

#80

Post by Camillo »

jakecopp wrote: post #78
ausvisaissues wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is also culture that plays a big part. I've lived in very high density housing in Japan (20 floor manshion type apartment) and medium density in US (2 level apartment). Higher density in Japan is much more pleasant due to the culture of being considerate of others. If I have to live in the US, I will choose suburbia for that reason.

How more considerate? Noise wise?

Not same person, but yes.
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