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Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The nature of time

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Re: Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The nature of time

#21
post #5

Not to nitpick, but I'm not sure the nature of time is so indisputably the greatest remaining mystery. The nature of consciousness, life, and death can all certainly give it a run for its money. Incidentally, would anyone happen to have a direct link to a version of this article that could be read without enabling javascript?

Yes. For me the greatest remaining mysteries are more in this order. 1. Nature of Life (we are still nowhere near understanding how it arose or how living organisms work in all their intricate detail). 2. Nature of Consciousness - what is consciousness, how can living matter instantiate it, how can we quantify it, etc? 3. Origin of the Universe 4. Why do we seem so alone in the Universe? 5. Resolving Quantum Mechanic…

"Nature of Life (we are still nowhere near understanding how it arose or how living organisms work in all their intricate detail)."

Not only that, but do you have an existence before you are born?

This might be a religious question to some, or perhaps involve a religious answer, but religion need not be involved. It's possible that in some not yet understood way an individual might exist before they're born and are somehow incarnated or embodied in to matter or the world as we know it when they're born.

Sure, it might sound kooky or something that science might never be able to answer (or maybe it could, who knows?). But the point is that that's all part of the mystery of life, and the answer could be a metaphysical or ontological one, not necessarily a religious one.

Another question regarding the nature of life is what exactly does it take to go from a non-living substance to a living one. In some way this is a question of definitions (which is difficult enough and controversial enough on its own), but even given an agreed-upon definition of life, it might not be clear how exactly the process from non-living to living take place, or at which point the non-living becomes living.

Re: Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The nature of time

#22
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. For me the greatest remaining mysteries are more in this order. 1. Nature of Life (we are still nowhere near understanding how it arose or how living organisms work in all their intricate detail). 2. Nature of Consciousness - what is consciousness, how can living matter instantiate it, how can we quantify it, etc? 3. Origin of the Universe 4. Why do we seem so alone in the Universe? 5. Resolving Quantum Mechanic…

I would bump the origin of the universe to the top, because no matter what universe-generating physics you come up with I can always ask, "but what set things up to work that way?" I'd also put consciousness up there, because it's fundamentally distinct from measurable things. Consciousness and the origin of the universe get place 0, and the others all get place 1 because they're solvable but we don't know in which o…

"I would bump the origin of the universe to the top, because no matter what universe-generating physics you come up with I can always ask, "but what set things up to work that way?""

Except that it might not be possible to get outside of consciousness to have any testable way of explaining what set it up to be that way.

It seems that we are hard-limited by our consciousness, and have no way of going outside of it to peek at "the universe" beyond.

Re: Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The nature of time

#23
post #7

Not to nitpick, but I'm not sure the nature of time is so indisputably the greatest remaining mystery. The nature of consciousness, life, and death can all certainly give it a run for its money. Incidentally, would anyone happen to have a direct link to a version of this article that could be read without enabling javascript?

how is death misunderstood?

"how is death misunderstood?"

Can one survive death in some way? (for example, through having some sort of soul or other part of you that is separate from your body)

Is there an afterlife?

After you die, can you be reborn in another body?

All of these are mysteries that might never be resolved to the complete satisfaction of the living.

Re: Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The nature of time

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nature of consciousness is the biggest one IMO, precisely because it doesn't appear to be captured by "nature of existence." we have good physical/mathematical models on hand re: causation, such that we can at least start hypothesizing about what change is, where the universe came from, what if anything differentiates life from other motion, etc. but consciousness is so categorically different that we can't even star…

If you accept that other people are conscious like yourself, it seems like you have accepted the physical origin of consciousness. If you don't accept that the subjective experience of consciousness is just a product of physical events, then how do you avoid viewing yourself as the only conscious entity? You can be a solipsist or not, but you can't have it both ways. Experiencing thoughts from outside yourself is a c…

While I think it's an interesting argument, I don't agree that accepting that some other being than me can be conscious leads to having to accept the physical origin of consciousness a priori. If you look at Buddhism or any esoteric system, they essentially posit that consciousness is a unified field from which everything manifests, like light refracted through an (infinitely) complex array of lens. The spots of light where the light terminates look separate, but if you look at where the source of the light enters the lens, it all comes from a single source. The experience of having a separate consciousness and a body or mind or thoughts that I identify as me or an I that is not you or that car or that tree is essentially just an illusion because I don't have the awareness to be conscious of that unity. Just because something appears to be separate from one perspective doesn't mean that it's separate in reality, it's just that I experience it as separate due to my limited perspective. Consciousness is an experiential vehicle by nature. It doesn't slot into the scientific method all that well no matter how we try to cram it in.

Re: Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The nature of time

#25
post #20

I think I'm a simpleton because I could never imagine time being it's own thing. I see time as simply the amount of change in reality we can perceptually sample. Much like how an object in motion will continue in it's motion until it meets resistance,reality in my opinion is in continuous motion that has yet to meet resistance. Time (imo)is our measure of this change divided by our ability to sample it(where this abi…

Sounds good. Next, please define "change", and explain why or how "change" exists and is detectable by humans.

That's what Rovelli is investigating/theorizing about.

Re: Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The nature of time

#26
post #20

I think I'm a simpleton because I could never imagine time being it's own thing. I see time as simply the amount of change in reality we can perceptually sample. Much like how an object in motion will continue in it's motion until it meets resistance,reality in my opinion is in continuous motion that has yet to meet resistance. Time (imo)is our measure of this change divided by our ability to sample it(where this abi…

"I see time as simply the amount of change in reality we can perceptually sample."

So if there was no one to perceive the change, there'd be no time?

Also, what is change?

Re: Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The nature of time

#27
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how is death misunderstood?

"how is death misunderstood?" Can one survive death in some way? (for example, through having some sort of soul or other part of you that is separate from your body) Is there an afterlife? After you die, can you be reborn in another body? All of these are mysteries that might never be resolved to the complete satisfaction of the living.

These questions are pretty firmly metaphysical, and there's no reason to expect science will ever have an answer. There are an infinite array of unanswerable questions about supernatural phenomena that have never been observed and probably never will.

Re: Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The nature of time

#28
post #5

Not to nitpick, but I'm not sure the nature of time is so indisputably the greatest remaining mystery. The nature of consciousness, life, and death can all certainly give it a run for its money. Incidentally, would anyone happen to have a direct link to a version of this article that could be read without enabling javascript?

Yes. For me the greatest remaining mysteries are more in this order. 1. Nature of Life (we are still nowhere near understanding how it arose or how living organisms work in all their intricate detail). 2. Nature of Consciousness - what is consciousness, how can living matter instantiate it, how can we quantify it, etc? 3. Origin of the Universe 4. Why do we seem so alone in the Universe? 5. Resolving Quantum Mechanic…

i would add morality to this -- at least problems in physics have a scientific framework within which they can be investigated. but why should we care? why should we be nice? of course there is plenty of rich philosophy on the subjcet

Re: Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The nature of time

#29
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. For me the greatest remaining mysteries are more in this order. 1. Nature of Life (we are still nowhere near understanding how it arose or how living organisms work in all their intricate detail). 2. Nature of Consciousness - what is consciousness, how can living matter instantiate it, how can we quantify it, etc? 3. Origin of the Universe 4. Why do we seem so alone in the Universe? 5. Resolving Quantum Mechanic…

"Nature of Life (we are still nowhere near understanding how it arose or how living organisms work in all their intricate detail)." Not only that, but do you have an existence before you are born? This might be a religious question to some, or perhaps involve a religious answer, but religion need not be involved. It's possible that in some not yet understood way an individual might exist before they're born and are s…

> Not only that, but do you have an existence before you are born?

If you are inventing mysteries out of thin air why stop there? What if you will yourself into existence? What if it is you that is making "time" perceivable for the rest of us? Do your half-existing-yet-unborn-brother dies every time you are reborn into this plane but not if you will yourself to be born into another parallel universe?

Re: Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The nature of time

#30
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. For me the greatest remaining mysteries are more in this order. 1. Nature of Life (we are still nowhere near understanding how it arose or how living organisms work in all their intricate detail). 2. Nature of Consciousness - what is consciousness, how can living matter instantiate it, how can we quantify it, etc? 3. Origin of the Universe 4. Why do we seem so alone in the Universe? 5. Resolving Quantum Mechanic…

I would bump the origin of the universe to the top, because no matter what universe-generating physics you come up with I can always ask, "but what set things up to work that way?" I'd also put consciousness up there, because it's fundamentally distinct from measurable things. Consciousness and the origin of the universe get place 0, and the others all get place 1 because they're solvable but we don't know in which o…

> I'd also put consciousness up there, because it's fundamentally distinct from measurable things.

No one knows that it is not measurable. Is love measurable? is hunger? happiness? they seem to be as measurable as consciousness, that is to say we can at least measure them in binary as either present or not.

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