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Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Military Contracts

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Re: Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Military Contracts

#451
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

God dammit, I knew my open source game framework was going to be used for nefarious purposes, how could I have been so short sighted?

Just kill yourself now.

Joking or not, commenting like this will get your account banned. Could you please re-read the guidelines?

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Military Contracts

#452
post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So every other country is some tiny 3rd world nation? You do realize there are major superpowers that are currently kept at bay through the promise of force? Or do you think they’re just being nice?

You do realize there are major superpowers that are currently kept at bay through the promise of force? Do you think they are deterred by observing American success in the ground campaigns it keeps losing or by the nuclear arsenal?

Nuclear arsenals are part of the military, and what campaigns do you think the US is losing? What materially have we actually lost?

Let's not conflate foreign policy and politics with military might. Things can go wrong from bad leadership regardless of what powers are at command, but those powers at the same time guarantee a certain level of safety and capability on behalf of the nation's interests. I don't see how you can deny that with any sense of reality.

Re: Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Military Contracts

#453
post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

Yeah, this is an incredibly unordinary talking point and it's not honest. At the very least it's just troll bait. "I hope your org gets sued." For what, not hiring crazy racist people? It's okay to call a spade a spade, instead of trying to masquerade these "differences" as some kind of valid, constructive view point. It's incredibly politically correct and it's annoying. The chances of you actually being a good, int…

[deleted]

Re: Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Military Contracts

#454
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that black and white. Working on missile guidance? Then I can see your point of view... but everything else in some way facilitates or contributes to facilitating such things. One can rapidly reduce it to "fixing a Linux bug... facilitates the military industrial complex". You might wish to not work on things that directly are used by the military, but the vast majority of technology is indirectly used becau…

I am not trying to over-simplify, but should I stop buying goods and services because the taxes taken on these transactions benefit the military? The dividing line varies from person to person, of course. I think most would agree that improving a guidance algorithm for missile targeting is directly supporting the military. Fixing a kernel bug is not directly supporting the military. I'm a pacifist and I would go by m…

I know of an immigrant couple that although they were green card holders and have been living in the US for about 10 years, they decided to pack up and leave to Europe (to another foreign country, not to their native country) and one of the reasons they said was that they didn't want their tax money to support an immoral government and military. It seemed weird to me at the time, was the first time I ever heard someone say that for a reason to leave the US but they seemed dead serious and knowing them I have no reason to belief they were lying...

Re: Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Military Contracts

#455
post #30

These employees are free to exercise their right to (not) work for whomever they want, but the certainty they express (as well as most commenters here) in their own self-righteousness seems misplaced to me. There's certainly a case to be made that a strong US military is in the world's best interest. In fact, I would wager that a majority of Americans (and a majority of citizens of democratic countries across the wor…

> Given that society created the environment for these tech companies (and their employees) to acquire their skills and thrive, does not society have some moral/ethical lien on how those skills are applied?

Which society does have that lien, the one I left behind that fully payed for my education (although almost everything I know about computers I learned on my own) or the one hosting the company I happen to work for right now? What about some years in the future when I move to another company/country?

Re: Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Military Contracts

#456
post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lemme just underline this. Google engineers come from all over the world, and Google products are built to serve people all over the world. The Googlers opposed to Maven believe that building software that enables one government to enact (more) drone strikes against civilians in other countries is contrary to the mission of making people's lives better. Preemptive lazy answers for lazy replies: Companies only exist t…

> Maven believe that building software that enables one government to enact (more) drone strikes against civilians in other countries is contrary to the mission of making people's lives better. I think that's a mischaracterization that's important to correct in the name of accuracy: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/30/technology/google-project... : > The polarized debate about Google and the military may leave out som…

I could very well be wrong, but I believe the statement these people were making is that they did not want to work on technology that kills people. It doesn't really matter if the work they would be doing would be to make it kill less 'good' people and more 'bad' people, they just don't want to work on stuff that kills people.

Re: Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Military Contracts

#457
post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this is an incredibly unordinary talking point and it's not honest. At the very least it's just troll bait. "I hope your org gets sued." For what, not hiring crazy racist people? It's okay to call a spade a spade, instead of trying to masquerade these "differences" as some kind of valid, constructive view point. It's incredibly politically correct and it's annoying. The chances of you actually being a good, int…

[deleted]

Do yourself a favor and re-read my post. And yes. It's an agreed upon view point.

Re: Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Military Contracts

#458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Militaries don't create good results, they only remove impediments to good results. You can't grow an economy by bombing infrastructure and killing people. Where your analysis is incomplete is that military might is not the only reason that people will avoid fighting. A strong military is a negative incentive ("I might lose or die"), but there are plenty of positive incentives for nations to avoid warfare. In fact, i…

> In fact, international relations tend to be dominated by positive incentives, which is why "cheeseburger diplomacy" is such a reliable concept “Cheeseburger diplomacy” is not a reliable concept, either the Obama practice to which the media gave the name or Friedman's McDonald's peace theory, which makes more sense in the context of your comment.

I was referring to the Friedman thing. While he was stupid enough to frame his rule as an absolute (thus it has been violated), the reality is that McDonalds is in 119 countries and the number of wars between those countries over the past 50 years can be counted using your fingers.

That was just an example, though. My main point is that the peoples and nations of the world, given the opportunity, overwhelmingly prefer to pursue relationships of peaceful mutual benefit, rather than military threat. The purpose of a military is merely to preserve or restore that opportunity.

The notion that trade has a negative correlation with war is a well-accepted concept in international relations, and one of the reasons national governments exert themselves to grow international economic relationships.

Re: Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Military Contracts

#459

I'm confused. When engineers from a company who deals with the military (or some other ethically objectionably client) don't refuse to work on these projects, HN questions their values and urges them to make a stand, refuse, find another job if necessary, etc. When the engineers do refuse, HN criticises them for beign self-righteous, virtue-signalling, and unpatriotic because countries with a lower ethical bar (Russi…

Mu. There is no "HN" as a single mind.

Re: Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Military Contracts

#460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google is at this point not just some US company, but a multi-national one. I'm not a US citizen, so for me the US having a strong military isn't necessarily in my best interests, depending on circumstance. So what stops me, as a Google customer (which I am), to stop doing business with them, given that I see proof after proof that they are working against my interests? This is the same problem as with the Snowden le…

Sorry to rain on your parade Google is a "US" company - just because its sets up in Europe to get access to cheap labour and as a lobbying tool "look we employ x people in your country" - doesn't make any difference. Eu companies do the same German pro union at home hire dodgy American union busters in the UK for example

Sorry, no. Technically it's a US-based company, but culturally it's multinational, and business-wise, most of its revenue comes from outside the US.

Arguing that Google owes special allegiance to the US gov't is like arguing that it owes special allegiance to the gov't of Delaware.

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