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Mysterious ‘Jumping Gene’ That Appears 500k Times in Human DNA

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Re: Mysterious ‘Jumping Gene’ That Appears 500k Times in Human DNA

#51

Post by fifnir »

JohnBerea wrote: post #49
fifnir wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So more or less you are hitting all the points from this bit: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Laryngeal_nerve#But_it_is_desi... so I'll answer from there myself: Make no mistake, as an explanation this achieves as much as saying "because the Flying Spaghetti Monster wanted a laugh". It does leave a few curiosities about the supposed intelligence of the designer, however, which are unanswered by this non-explanation. It…

The article you quoted says "there seems to be no apparent benefit to an extensive routing of the nerve supplying the larynx," but it doesn't mention or address the three reasons I cited above.

> On the recurrent laryngeal nerve in mammals: A direct route to the larynx already exists through the superior laryngeal nerve. A second path provides redundancy if one is damaged (e.g. by disease or developmental defect) > The nerve innervates the deep cardiac plexus at the bottom, and the esophagus and trachea on its way to the larynx. So the path needs to be run anyway, leaving little advantage to another route.

So the main route between NY and Philly will loop through Chicago. We will build a secondary direct route between NY and philly, but it'll only allow access to certain suburbs not the entire city [1].

This route will connect NY and Chicago on its way there, and NY and philly on the way back. I certainly don't see any advantage to any other route. not even if I were omnipotent and omniscient could I do that.

>during development the recurrent [....] own is better design than if it were not.

During the building of the NY-Philly-throughChicago route, we will be bringing life and jobs to the local communities, so this is of course GOOD DESIGN.

ps.

[1] According to wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_laryngeal_nerve "All intrinsic laryngeal muscles except the cricothyroids are innervated by the recurrent laryngeal nerve." so I don't know what you're talking about in (1)

Re: Mysterious ‘Jumping Gene’ That Appears 500k Times in Human DNA

#52

Post by daemonk »

menacingly wrote: post #24
PaulAJ wrote: post #2

The parasite theory is that transposons are rather like early computer viruses that replicated by embedding themselves in other executables: they exist only to make copies of themselves in their host genome. This theory is not incompatible with these results. Evolution is not a rational design process. Once a transposon starts replicating it is quite possible for the host genome to evolve to incorporate the transposo…

I'm not usually much of an intelligent design advocate, but approaching it from the angle that we know enough right now to make definitive calls as to the merits of different genetic approaches is hubris _at best_. Not to mention the sneaky embedded assumption that an engineering approach is even the best way to go.

I think the fact that we have to "imagine" why an intelligent designer would have designed something a certain way brings this idea out of the realm of natural science.

If we assume there is a supernatural force behind everything, then we might as well not do experiments anymore because any result we get might have a wildly uncontrollable variable that is impossible to account for.

Re: Mysterious ‘Jumping Gene’ That Appears 500k Times in Human DNA

#53

Post by bena »

joshuahedlund wrote: post #39
bena wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then it's just as meaningless. I mean, the claim is that we're so complex we must have been designed. But there are what seems like very serious design flaws in lots of organisms. Giraffes have a nerve that travel up and down their necks only to wind up a few inches from where it should be. Our eyes have the nerves attached on the wrong side, giving us blind spots and a host of other problems. And on and on. You can'…

The counter-argument to many "design flaws" is, as a sibling comment mentioned, they may be "artifacts of the complexity of reality," especially constraints due to the fact that living things are built up from single cells and need to be functional during the growth process, as opposed to being pieced together like a robot from existing materials. IANABiologist, but I think I've heard that the giraffe nerve has to gr…

The embryology argument doesn't hold water. There is not reason for that nerve to be routed the way it is. In most creatures, it's not an issue, it's a few inches. In giraffes, it's pretty far.

Also, "constraints" seems like kind of a funny excuse when considering a creator who is described as omnipotent.

Re: Mysterious ‘Jumping Gene’ That Appears 500k Times in Human DNA

#54

Post by mgamache »

Erlich_Bachman wrote: post #16
Retric wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait what? Are you arguing that 'god(s)' where and or might be incompetent? Anyway, I don't think ID requires that every mutation was designed, rather that an intelegent agent made at least one adjustment to an ongoing process. The problem is it's not a falsifiable theory because it makes no specific testable predictions.

> Wait what? Are you arguing that 'god(s)' where and or might be incompetent? I get the humor in your question. Yet I would like to comment for the people who might be more seriously interested in this question, that the most enlightened view seems to be that 'god(s)' are not incompetent, but are simply not done yet, they haven't completed the design. That the design itself is not a finished final product, but rather…

> saying basically that no scientific truth can be an argument for or against any spiritual claim.

This is an agument for "NOMA" or Non Overlapping Magisteria. While this is true in the abstract pure Deist standpoint, it's not true for most religions or supernatural belief systems. All Abrahamic regions (for example) make specific claims about the nature of reality that is in direct conflict with science.

Re: Mysterious ‘Jumping Gene’ That Appears 500k Times in Human DNA

#55

Post by JohnBerea »

fifnir wrote: post #51
JohnBerea wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article you quoted says "there seems to be no apparent benefit to an extensive routing of the nerve supplying the larynx," but it doesn't mention or address the three reasons I cited above.

> On the recurrent laryngeal nerve in mammals: A direct route to the larynx already exists through the superior laryngeal nerve. A second path provides redundancy if one is damaged (e.g. by disease or developmental defect) > The nerve innervates the deep cardiac plexus at the bottom, and the esophagus and trachea on its way to the larynx. So the path needs to be run anyway, leaving little advantage to another route.…

If you need to make deliveries along the whole path from NY to Chicago to Philly, the path makes sense. If the road is necessary to anchor Chicago and keep it from floating away during the development of the United States, that's another reason, although our analogy is becoming strained lol.

If you are missing either of the superior or recurrent laryngeal nerve, you can still speak, although not as well as if you have both. Doctors use this hoarseness as a diagnostic for various chest issues.

United Airlines Flight 232 also illustrates the importance of running redundant cables through different paths. One piece of shrapnel pierced all three hydraulic systems on board, and nearly half the passengers were killed.

Re: Mysterious ‘Jumping Gene’ That Appears 500k Times in Human DNA

#56

Post by labster »

mgamache wrote: post #54
Erlich_Bachman wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wait what? Are you arguing that 'god(s)' where and or might be incompetent? I get the humor in your question. Yet I would like to comment for the people who might be more seriously interested in this question, that the most enlightened view seems to be that 'god(s)' are not incompetent, but are simply not done yet, they haven't completed the design. That the design itself is not a finished final product, but rather…

> saying basically that no scientific truth can be an argument for or against any spiritual claim. This is an agument for "NOMA" or Non Overlapping Magisteria. While this is true in the abstract pure Deist standpoint, it's not true for most religions or supernatural belief systems. All Abrahamic regions (for example) make specific claims about the nature of reality that is in direct conflict with science.

The degree to which practitioners of Abrahamic religions believe best guess scientific claims from thousands of years ago varies, of course.

Re: Mysterious ‘Jumping Gene’ That Appears 500k Times in Human DNA

#57

Post by fifnir »

JohnBerea wrote: post #55
fifnir wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the recurrent laryngeal nerve in mammals: A direct route to the larynx already exists through the superior laryngeal nerve. A second path provides redundancy if one is damaged (e.g. by disease or developmental defect) > The nerve innervates the deep cardiac plexus at the bottom, and the esophagus and trachea on its way to the larynx. So the path needs to be run anyway, leaving little advantage to another route.…

If you need to make deliveries along the whole path from NY to Chicago to Philly, the path makes sense. If the road is necessary to anchor Chicago and keep it from floating away during the development of the United States, that's another reason, although our analogy is becoming strained lol. If you are missing either of the superior or recurrent laryngeal nerve, you can still speak, although not as well as if you hav…

>If you need to make deliveries along the whole path from NY to Chicago to Philly, the path makes sense.

Come on man seriously? No, what makes sense if you are designing this is to make one direct connection between Ny-Philly and another NY-chicago.

Re: Mysterious ‘Jumping Gene’ That Appears 500k Times in Human DNA

#58

Post by mgamache »

labster wrote: post #56
mgamache wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> saying basically that no scientific truth can be an argument for or against any spiritual claim. This is an agument for "NOMA" or Non Overlapping Magisteria. While this is true in the abstract pure Deist standpoint, it's not true for most religions or supernatural belief systems. All Abrahamic regions (for example) make specific claims about the nature of reality that is in direct conflict with science.

The degree to which practitioners of Abrahamic religions believe best guess scientific claims from thousands of years ago varies, of course.

True... However, 38% of Americans still hold a Creationist View of Humans

https://news.gallup.com/poll/210956/belief-creationist-view-... [2017]

Re: Mysterious ‘Jumping Gene’ That Appears 500k Times in Human DNA

#59

Post by DSingularity »

mgamache wrote: post #54
Erlich_Bachman wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wait what? Are you arguing that 'god(s)' where and or might be incompetent? I get the humor in your question. Yet I would like to comment for the people who might be more seriously interested in this question, that the most enlightened view seems to be that 'god(s)' are not incompetent, but are simply not done yet, they haven't completed the design. That the design itself is not a finished final product, but rather…

> saying basically that no scientific truth can be an argument for or against any spiritual claim. This is an agument for "NOMA" or Non Overlapping Magisteria. While this is true in the abstract pure Deist standpoint, it's not true for most religions or supernatural belief systems. All Abrahamic regions (for example) make specific claims about the nature of reality that is in direct conflict with science.

Are we sure that the religious texts themselves make the claims about reality. Is it instead incorrect physical interpretations by followers of the religion of the religious text?

Re: Mysterious ‘Jumping Gene’ That Appears 500k Times in Human DNA

#60

Post by d0lph »

labster wrote: post #56
mgamache wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> saying basically that no scientific truth can be an argument for or against any spiritual claim. This is an agument for "NOMA" or Non Overlapping Magisteria. While this is true in the abstract pure Deist standpoint, it's not true for most religions or supernatural belief systems. All Abrahamic regions (for example) make specific claims about the nature of reality that is in direct conflict with science.

The degree to which practitioners of Abrahamic religions believe best guess scientific claims from thousands of years ago varies, of course.

And also, in some scenarios people mock the bible for calling a whale a fish in the story of Jonah, when a whale is a mammal. However the people of the time did not distinguish animals like we do. We only started classifying animals like that in the 1800s.
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