Live data from Hacker News

Inside a Heist of American Chip Designs, as China Bids for Tech Power

nytimes.com

31–40 of 211 posts

Re: Inside a Heist of American Chip Designs, as China Bids for Tech Power

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stealing IP mostly helps manufacturing, It doesn't really help innovation. If they want to build up their semiconductor industry they need to steal the people who are creating IP, which is kinda the opposite of what is happening. the culture that creates new tech is something that china can't steal and it can't replicate it without giving up authoritarian rule.

It’s the same culture that sends tidal waves of students to American universities to earn Ph.Ds, and because of our piss-poor immigration system, most of them have to go back home with all of that valuable education and use it in China or India or wherever instead of the USA.

The U.S. helps to educate and provide opportunity to people, regardless of national origin - regardless of the arbitrary, invisible lines on a map, drawn by the powerful, in which they were born. Partly as a result, the greatest economic miracle in history has occurred since WWII (and especially since the end of the Cold War), with hundreds of millions of people pulled from millennia of hopeless, abject poverty.

Another great result is that U.S. businesses now have enormous markets in China and India in which to sell, vendors from which to buy, and more talented employees which to hire. China and India are the top two markets in the world for many products, including cell phones IIRC. Imagine the impact on the bottom line of SV companies if they went away. A smart businessperson wants other businesses to do well; they want rich, successful neighbors; otherwise, who do they sell to? Who do they hire? Who provides goods and services to them?

Yet another result is that those people are familiar with the United States and its values, and can bring them home. Wars start because political leaders can propagandize about how evil the are, which is hard to do with populations that have direct experience with each other. And the values of democracy and universal human rights (i.e., regardless of political borders) have revolutionized humanity.

And finally, due to immigrants the U.S. has become the academic center of the world. You may notice that much of the great scientific work before WWII was done in Europe, but then nationalism and ideology in Europe chased out their great scientists, who emigrated to the U.S. English become the language of science. The halls of U.S. academia have been filled with immigrants since then. If the center of knowledge and research moved someplace else, the U.S. will have lost what has really become an enormous, and really an unfair benefit. How much does SV benefit from all that research, talent, and knowledge at Stanford and Berkley?

So I want more immigration, more opportunity for more people. How absurd that people with the talent and drive to get PhDs would never have had the opportunity. If the U.S. has to build more universities, that's great.

Re: Inside a Heist of American Chip Designs, as China Bids for Tech Power

#32
My comment on the article. Usually I am of higher opinion of NYT, but now this piece of writing is simply tendencious

The court case covered there is just plainly the case of plaintiff's lawyers being paranoid about about petty theft case, and having rich imagination. Think of Aron Schwartz case, except even more absurd here, as the defendant have called police on himself.

An employee from mainland who previously worked at a competitor company accidentally put coworker's phone into her bag along with papers on the table. They guy thought that his phone was stolen and called police, police found his phone in a locker of a coworker.

During investigation of that theft, they stumbled on some company docs on the phone, and opened an espionage case based on that. Why a defector would file a police report on his accomplice?

For it to be an espionage, a less lame way to exfiltrate information would be employed, and certainly, a spy will not call the police to arrest his accomplice.

Just thinking that somebody can carry netlists for a chip which take few hard drives to store in compressed form on a tiny memory of a smartphone does not pass a BS test.

Re: Inside a Heist of American Chip Designs, as China Bids for Tech Power

#33
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DRAM makers make $10k per platter. A single fab pops 20k - 30k complete wafers a month, and each top tier maker has 4 to 6 of them. Thought, all makers are working at only 60 to 70 percent capacity now. You can guess, they are plump with money, and MOFCOM officials naturally want to communize some part of this money pile.

Is your math really right? > DRAM makers make $10k per platter. A single line pops out 40k a month, a single fab has 20+ lines, a fab complex has up to 8 fabs. Each DRAM maker has few fab complexes. If I do this I get 10,000 * 40,000 * 20 * 8 which is $64 Billion.... per month. Are you suggesting that the average DRAM maker should have revenue of $64 Billion a month or $768 Billion a year? It sounds like you know the…

my bad, my bad. Corrected my digits. We are looking at around 20 to 30k complete DRAM waffers per fab. For god knows what reason, digits for a line and a whole fab swapped places in my head.

Re: Inside a Heist of American Chip Designs, as China Bids for Tech Power

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s the same culture that sends tidal waves of students to American universities to earn Ph.Ds, and because of our piss-poor immigration system, most of them have to go back home with all of that valuable education and use it in China or India or wherever instead of the USA.

The U.S. helps to educate and provide opportunity to people, regardless of national origin - regardless of the arbitrary, invisible lines on a map, drawn by the powerful, in which they were born. Partly as a result, the greatest economic miracle in history has occurred since WWII (and especially since the end of the Cold War), with hundreds of millions of people pulled from millennia of hopeless, abject poverty. Anot…

[deleted]

Re: Inside a Heist of American Chip Designs, as China Bids for Tech Power

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stealing IP definitely helps innovation. To get to the innovation stage you first need to reach parity. There is no faster way to reaching parity than to steal IP. As for the "the culture that creates new tech is something that china can't steal and it can't replicate it without giving up authoritarian rule", that's nonsense that would have found an audience in the 1950's or so when talking about Russia, but it reall…

I disagree with your opinions and your characterization of my argument. I didn't say people will not think about technological problems. Despite the incredible amount of good the party has done for the people of china they are still an authoritarian regime. I don't think authoritarian regimes are good at fostering innovation.

They don't need to be 'good' at anything, they just will move slower than an equivalent market based system but eventually they will get there.

As long as the rest of the world out-innovates them they may not catch up but do not underestimate the power of over 1 billion people, especially not when a large number of them are very smart.

Have a look at China 30 years ago and China today and tell me that that authoritarian regime isn't moving forward, and relative to the rest of the world they are moving at an incredible pace.

We, the West (assuming you are in the West like I am) should count our blessings that China isn't going full-bore on a market economy and democratic system because the Chinese in such a configuration would be absolutely un-stoppable.

Re: Inside a Heist of American Chip Designs, as China Bids for Tech Power

#36
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You fuse two atoms.

You look Stalin in the eye and tell him he has to choose between Marxism-Leninism and having an atom bomb...

That is unfair : you have read the book!

Re: Inside a Heist of American Chip Designs, as China Bids for Tech Power

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s the same culture that sends tidal waves of students to American universities to earn Ph.Ds, and because of our piss-poor immigration system, most of them have to go back home with all of that valuable education and use it in China or India or wherever instead of the USA.

The U.S. helps to educate and provide opportunity to people, regardless of national origin - regardless of the arbitrary, invisible lines on a map, drawn by the powerful, in which they were born. Partly as a result, the greatest economic miracle in history has occurred since WWII (and especially since the end of the Cold War), with hundreds of millions of people pulled from millennia of hopeless, abject poverty. Anot…

Academic immigrants these days are also potentially undercutting/warping expectations about labor in academic labs. 36k (for grad students) or 50k (for postdocs) are hardly acceptable salaries from an American perspective, but to folks from India and China those salaries are fortunes relatively speaking. To Indians/Chinese a 70 hour work week for that money might be worth it.

Contrast this to past academic immigration in the 40s that you refer to, where immigrants were from countries with similar sensibilities and levels of development (primarily German Jews).

I don't think that this necessarily invalidates your points, but it's worth pointing out that there are economic consequences when larger slices of the PhD candidates out there are from developing nations instead of other developed nations.

Re: Inside a Heist of American Chip Designs, as China Bids for Tech Power

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stealing IP definitely helps innovation. To get to the innovation stage you first need to reach parity. There is no faster way to reaching parity than to steal IP. As for the "the culture that creates new tech is something that china can't steal and it can't replicate it without giving up authoritarian rule", that's nonsense that would have found an audience in the 1950's or so when talking about Russia, but it reall…

I disagree with your opinions and your characterization of my argument. I didn't say people will not think about technological problems. Despite the incredible amount of good the party has done for the people of china they are still an authoritarian regime. I don't think authoritarian regimes are good at fostering innovation.

>I don't think authoritarian regimes are good at fostering innovation.

The USSR came from far behind and beat us to space. Authoritarian regimes may struggle to allocate food efficiently but they're fine at allocating scientists.

Re: Inside a Heist of American Chip Designs, as China Bids for Tech Power

#39
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People write this glibly without understanding history. Soviet Russia made great leaps in science and technology where it was a national priority. You can have academic freedom in most scientific disciplines without the political freedom to criticize the government.

Have any examples? As far as I am aware, the USSR only beat USA at getting into space first.

They also had great chemists and physicists. Many of them were awarded nobel prizes, so you can look it up.

Re: Inside a Heist of American Chip Designs, as China Bids for Tech Power

#40
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You look Stalin in the eye and tell him he has to choose between Marxism-Leninism and having an atom bomb...

That is unfair : you have read the book!

It’s not clear why Lenin felt the need to state this, he obviously didn’t know anything about it, but he did, and so it became the official position of Soviet science. But Stalin was nothing if not pragmatic so...
Post reply on HN