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Amazon employees protest sale of facial recognition tech to law enforcement

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Re: Amazon employees protest sale of facial recognition tech to law enforcement

#81

Post by int_19h »

derping_hacker wrote: post #77
gasull wrote: post #54

I'm dismayed at the comments here of "if Amazon/Microsoft/Google don't work for ICE, someone else will". That argument doesn't fly. If you stop helping ICE, they will have to get worse software from likely more expensive vendors (less market competition for the contract). Which will make ICE less efficient in its goal to criminalize, separate and deport immigrants.

Illegal immigration costs US federal and state governments close to 135 billion annually. Free college education for every American would cost 50-60. Why should I value criminals more than my fellow Americans. What legal obligation do I have to have the money I work for used to pay for illegal immigrants? We could educate every american and have another 60 billion to spare to help the African-American community. http…

How many children are you willing to cage to provide free college education for every American?

Because that's literally what you're arguing here.

Re: Amazon employees protest sale of facial recognition tech to law enforcement

#82

Post by int_19h »

wencha wrote: post #76
StreamBright wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, I am an immigrant. I am not sure why you think that ICE criminalize anybody? How is this even possible? People violate the law are criminals. Trying to enter the US illegally is a crime. Pretty plain simple. I do not like the ICE but I had pleasant experience with them even when I tried to enter the US (unknowingly) illegally once. They helped me through the process, fined me (following the law) and I w…

For some reason, the conversation here and in some other places is dominated by people who want open borders, and therefore don’t believe entering a country without permission is illegal. Such an argument would never fly in real life, so I don’t know why so much time is wasted arguing with them. It feels like some kind of elaborate trolling, saying something super crazy and waiting for answers (baiting).

Most people appalled at what's going on aren't arguing for open borders. They do want borders, and some degree of border security. What they're saying is that at some point, the amount of suffering you have to cause to reach that level of security is simply morally unacceptable.

Re: Amazon employees protest sale of facial recognition tech to law enforcement

#83

Post by int_19h »

pandem wrote: post #74
gasull wrote: post #54

I'm dismayed at the comments here of "if Amazon/Microsoft/Google don't work for ICE, someone else will". That argument doesn't fly. If you stop helping ICE, they will have to get worse software from likely more expensive vendors (less market competition for the contract). Which will make ICE less efficient in its goal to criminalize, separate and deport immigrants.

If ICE has to get worse software that just means you and everyone else need to pay more in taxes. The government has the means to get what it wants usually

Usually that just translates to more and better Potemkin villages. Ultimately, knowledge and skills are a limited resource, and money is not a replacement for it.

Re: Amazon employees protest sale of facial recognition tech to law enforcement

#84

Post by derping_hacker »

pjc50 wrote: post #79
derping_hacker wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Illegal immigration costs US federal and state governments close to 135 billion annually. Free college education for every American would cost 50-60. Why should I value criminals more than my fellow Americans. What legal obligation do I have to have the money I work for used to pay for illegal immigrants? We could educate every american and have another 60 billion to spare to help the African-American community. http…

> Illegal immigration costs US federal and state governments close to 135 billion annually. This is such a ridiculous number that it should be discounted out of hand. It also sounds like you're not counting the benefits of, work done by, and taxes paid by, these people. Immigration enforcement is never going to get you free college. That's not how the politics works.

If you read the source provided you would see the net loss is still 113 billion to the US government.

As for myself I got a full ride scholarship based on test scores and makes 200k in my early 20s, I just don't like seeing my taxes pay for people who cheat the system.

Re: Amazon employees protest sale of facial recognition tech to law enforcement

#85

Post by int_19h »

lord_ring_11 wrote: post #41

Seriously? All the proclaimed freedom in country is built on the backs of soldiers/police. And we are worried about helping them? If we cant trust the govt then boot them. I am more worried about big companies which are accountable to small set of shareholders more than big govt accountable to najority.

> I am more worried about big companies which are accountable to small set of shareholders more than big govt accountable to najority.

Well then, how do you feel when the two cooperate, one enabling the other to screw us more efficiently?

Re: Amazon employees protest sale of facial recognition tech to law enforcement

#86

Post by pjc50 »

derping_hacker wrote: post #84
pjc50 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Illegal immigration costs US federal and state governments close to 135 billion annually. This is such a ridiculous number that it should be discounted out of hand. It also sounds like you're not counting the benefits of, work done by, and taxes paid by, these people. Immigration enforcement is never going to get you free college. That's not how the politics works.

If you read the source provided you would see the net loss is still 113 billion to the US government. As for myself I got a full ride scholarship based on test scores and makes 200k in my early 20s, I just don't like seeing my taxes pay for people who cheat the system.

I don't know why I'm bothering to engage with an anti-immigration "think tank" that's obviously going to be a pit of dishonesty, but I had a look at the linked PDF:

"The overall population that we analyze, for the purposes of determining the costs of illegal immigration, also includes about 4.2 million American-born minor children of illegal aliens. Although, the U.S.- born children of illegal aliens are, under the current interpretation of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution, de jure U.S. citizens, they are also typically “targeted low-income children,” who are eligible for a variety of federal benefits. While not counted as illegal aliens, these children are a signifi cant part of illegal immigration’s fi scal impact on the U.S. taxpayer. Because they would not be present in the United States but for their parents violation of American immigration law, we consider them to be appropriately considered part of the cost of illegal immigration. "

Right. So they're counting US-born children, who they admit are constitutionally Americans, as part of the cost of illegal immigration.

So I guess the next step is finding a way to deport or cage those US-born American children of illegal immigrants?

Re: Amazon employees protest sale of facial recognition tech to law enforcement

#87

Post by awalton »

derping_hacker wrote: post #77
gasull wrote: post #54

I'm dismayed at the comments here of "if Amazon/Microsoft/Google don't work for ICE, someone else will". That argument doesn't fly. If you stop helping ICE, they will have to get worse software from likely more expensive vendors (less market competition for the contract). Which will make ICE less efficient in its goal to criminalize, separate and deport immigrants.

Illegal immigration costs US federal and state governments close to 135 billion annually. Free college education for every American would cost 50-60. Why should I value criminals more than my fellow Americans. What legal obligation do I have to have the money I work for used to pay for illegal immigrants? We could educate every american and have another 60 billion to spare to help the African-American community. http…

Well, it's good to know Russian robots have made it to Hacker News.

Re: Amazon employees protest sale of facial recognition tech to law enforcement

#88

Post by naasking »

confounded wrote: post #61
bb88 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your anger is misdirected. The fight isn't whether or not ICE should have facial recognition software. The fight is to make ICE act in accordance with our values. Some agency (ICE or whatever replaces it) will still need to protect the borders, and that protection will require facial recognition software. If you hate ICE, you should also probably hate defense contractors more, because they have very little moral qual…

Not sure if the parent expressed anything approaching either anger or hate. > ... that protection will require facial recognition software. Why? Lots of things are effective, but life in a free country means that we don’t do some of them. We could put cameras in every home, make them illegal to disable. Ban encryption. Censor the web. Ban cars that can’t be remotely disabled. Free societies are free because there is…

> My point is, that regardless of your issue, authoritarianism is not a good answer.

Your assumption that this software would be used for authoritarian ends is exactly the problem the OP was trying to point out.

Re: Amazon employees protest sale of facial recognition tech to law enforcement

#89

Post by Nasrudith »

varactor wrote: post #37
keeptrying wrote: post #4

I am seriously liking how S/W engineers are controlling the conversation here.

It would be more correct to say "a small but vocal subset of software engineers" are controlling the conversation. That is, if they do manage to "control" it in Amazon's case, which I highly doubt. This is completely politically motivated knee jerk. If you do not like surveillance and would like to have less of it, the proper way to deal with the problem is to get your lawmaker to ban it at the federal level, not to…

A small but active group has been the way large scale social changes have always worked. The people who wanted independence in the US revolution was a minority. Have you ever heard "be the change in the world you want to see?" They cannot guarantee that politicians will listen to even majority supported. policies but they can choose who they work for and make demanda accordingly. It is no different than requesting a raise with the implied threat "or I will leave to work someplace else that will". The user of a technology is also a large component. Nobody objects to Soviet engineers making rockets when von Braun was also slammed for doing so.

Putting aside the "Obama did it" false equivalency I do not see why following ones conscience and using their right to choose to take a stand in a nondamaging way is so offensive to some people. I would guess from it highlighting their own moral abdications but I am not the best at understanding people.

Re: Amazon employees protest sale of facial recognition tech to law enforcement

#90

Post by Nasrudith »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #47

I have a feeling that one of these cloud companies is going to have a mass firing of employees that are protesting against government contracts. People underestimate just how much money the US government spends. Just DoD spending is more than 600 Billion per year. Microsoft and Google have annual revenue of 100 Billion. The $10 Billion Pentagon cloud contract immediately gives a huge boost to any cloud provider. As c…

I doubt that will happen or if it does it will end poorly for them. DOD contracts are very diffuse and Lockheed Martin made only $36B in revenue and they are the top with expenses from "the game" like offices in every district they need for political support.

The fact that the hot areas have absurd cost of living and companies keep paying it instead of moving to cheaper locales and attempts to do so have failed is quite telling.

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