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A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source

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Re: A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source

#43
post #6

If Linus had written the reworded email the author is proposing here, this author wouldn't be writing this blog post, and we wouldn't be clicking it on HN and reading the contents of Linus' points. As to the actual detail of the author's proposed rewordings: > I'm not talking about the changes themselves - I can live with them. But the _rationale_ is pure and utter garbage, and dangerously so. becomes > These changes…

There's something weird going on with Linus vs the polite people, where Linus is far too rude, but his critics are asking him to adopt a conversational style with a dangerous amount of hedging and uncertainty that would be catastrophically bad for the kernel.

Consider These changes look OK, but the rationale is dangerously wrong. It doesn't require Linus to pretend he's "not sure" about a rationale that he obviously thinks is both wrong and dangerous, but it's less personally insulting, shorter, and more on topic.

Re: A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source

#44
> Writing this email instead of the original email doesn't require any extra work

Really? I’m not going to defend Linus’s original message; Gary’s version eschews the unnecessary ranting in favor of more concise language. But the claim above strikes me as disingenuous at best.

There’s a reason we have quotes like, “I’d have written a shorter letter, but I didn’t have the time.” Clear and concise language often requires multiple revisions. I personally think it’s worth the extra effort, but it does require an effort.

I’d be astonished if Gary didn’t spend a lot more time on his version than Linus did.

Re: A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source

#45
post #7

Linus seems like a jerk if you see him as an entitled engineer maintaining a popular OSS library. But if you instead see him as a CEO, responsible for every single part of the Linux kernel, running on one billion machines, his behavior becomes natural. Even warranted, since, often-times the people at the recieving end of his wrath are not making some whoops-daisy technical mistake; they are trying to exert power and…

I don't like Linus's approach because it takes the conversation away from "how did this break, let's investigate carefully" and steers it towards blaming an individual for making a mistake.

As Mauro points out in the replies, the patch here was trying to fix an issue where one driver (uvcvideo) was returning error codes that didn't match what the majority of drivers were doing -- something that was also a bug and was also breaking userspace. The -ENOENT that Linus screams about is an internal driver error that accidentally was returned to userspace in one place.

No core maintainer was refusing to fix userspace (read the thread!), they just wanted to understand the breakage in question since the patch was intended to fix something else!

Software is hard and tricky. The correct response to managing this complexity shouldn't be calling someone an idiot for trying.

A lot of the widely-celebrated "Linus burns" have important, nuanced discussion behind them that is thrown out the window when it's reduced to swears and anger.

Re: A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have done science to answer your last question. In general the answer is no.

Do you have any references? I'd be interested to read them.

I took note of the “Mr torvalds or Mr Rogers” example. It was clever and I think the truth underlying it is that for an idea to survive its circumstances, it must be shepherded by certain kinds of personalities.

Re: A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source

#47

It's amusing to watch people defend Linus every time a post mentions his abrasive style. They always offer the same set of excuses: Linux is too important to leave to nice people! Linus only does this to people who should know better! Get thicker skin! Etc etc. It's the same set of excuses that justify assholes in any profession, and it suffers from the same flaw: it's not actually necessary to be a dickhead to be go…

> I don't want people in other OSS projects emulating him.

This strikes me as a self-regulating problem...

Linus gets to Linus for a lot of the same reasons Jobs got to Jobs. Try to port those attitudes to other areas, less successful areas, and you're gonna hit human factors. Namely: people aren't gonna tolerate jerks without cause.

Linus is not a role model, he's running a highly important and specific project. He's not dealing with weekend coders, he's wrangling senior types IBM, RedHat, MS, and Google. If those corporate titans don't like how he writes on his mailing list they're welcome to fork off into the sunset ;)

Re: A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source

#48
post #27

This must be a cultural thing. There are plenty of people who happily interact like this daily. It is a personality. People talk and act in different ways, they are different people, I think it is reasonable for them to continue acting like themselves. I don't find the way Linus writes offensive in the slightest. To me it is mildly amusing while making a point. I don't want to have all communications in a forced poli…

>This must be a cultural thing. Yes. Parts of the FOSS community have a culture that apologizes for jerky behavior. >There are plenty of people who happily interact like this daily. There are plenty of jerks, yes. > I think it is reasonable for them to continue acting like themselves. Being part of a team means accommodating your team members. We can argue what is a reasonable accommodation or what is not. But it's n…

This is a fundamental disagreement. What you call a jerk is what i see as a interesting person. Carefully measured polite language is absolutely exhausting for many of us. It is much nice to simply tolerate different people.

People have cultures and personalities, many which are not understood by other cultures and personalities. I prefer us to exist side by side instead of banning one in favour of the other.

Re: A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source

#49
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This must be a cultural thing. Yes. Parts of the FOSS community have a culture that apologizes for jerky behavior. >There are plenty of people who happily interact like this daily. There are plenty of jerks, yes. > I think it is reasonable for them to continue acting like themselves. Being part of a team means accommodating your team members. We can argue what is a reasonable accommodation or what is not. But it's n…

This is a fundamental disagreement. What you call a jerk is what i see as a interesting person. Carefully measured polite language is absolutely exhausting for many of us. It is much nice to simply tolerate different people. People have cultures and personalities, many which are not understood by other cultures and personalities. I prefer us to exist side by side instead of banning one in favour of the other.

> What you call a jerk is what i see as a interesting person.

There's no accounting for taste, so you're welcome to find verbal abuse interesting. But the overwhelming majority of people do not like being treated with disrespect.

> People have cultures and personalities, many which are not understood by other cultures and personalities.

This isn't a cultural issue. Linus is from Finland. In Finnish culture, it's rude to imply your coworker an idiot. It's rude in most cultures to do so.

Linus is a fluent English speaker. He knows what "idiocy" means, and he knows that it's disrespectful to Andy. That's why he's saying it.

> Carefully measured polite language is absolutely exhausting for many of us.

Nobody is suggesting we use carefully measured language. That is exhausting.

What I'm suggesting is, just don't be a jerk. Watch how easy it is:

"Andy, what is the background for trying to push this idiocy?"

vs

"Andy, what is the background for trying to push this?"

The second statement isn't cluttered by polite language. And it actually takes less effort to say than the first. Yet it's far less Jerky.

> I prefer us to exist side by side instead of banning one in favour of the other.

In general, people should learn to work with people who are different from them. I work with people who have a different religion from me, speak with a different accent, or have different interests from me. And we put aside our differences to work together. It works well.

But there is one kind of person you can't work with, no matter how many differences you put aside, and that's a bully.

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