A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source • Hacker News Board

Re: A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source

#11

Post by pmiller2 » Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 2:45 PM UTC

na85 wrote: post #9

pmiller2 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are clearly in the author’s group 3: people who say we should just tolerate this sort of thing. In that spirit, I could simply say you’re full of shit and move on, fully knowing you won’t be convinced by anything I say, but I won’t do that. Instead, I offer you this: the revised email is half the length of the original, and still makes the case as strongly as the first based on the logical arguments. How would yo…

I categorically disagree that the revised email makes the same case. The first sentence that Linus wrote indicates that he finds it questionable, but the revised statement puts words into Linus' mouth: "this looks ok but..." That's not even the same sentiment. Okay versus Questionable. Not sure why the Tone Police feel it's necessary to do this.

He clearly doesn’t have a problem with the code, otherwise he wouldn’t say he could “live with” the changes. This portion could be better worded to convey the “code is ok, but the rationale is flawed” message. How would you rewrite it?

Re: A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source

#12

Post by hitekker » Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 2:46 PM UTC

lucideer wrote: post #6

If Linus had written the reworded email the author is proposing here, this author wouldn't be writing this blog post, and we wouldn't be clicking it on HN and reading the contents of Linus' points. As to the actual detail of the author's proposed rewordings: > I'm not talking about the changes themselves - I can live with them. But the _rationale_ is pure and utter garbage, and dangerously so. becomes > These changes…

The author sounds like someone raised their voice at him once, and he swore he would never ever forgive the world for that insult.

Politically unconscious and otherwise inarticulate.

Re: A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source

#13

Post by davidkuhta » Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 2:46 PM UTC

lucideer wrote: post #6

If Linus had written the reworded email the author is proposing here, this author wouldn't be writing this blog post, and we wouldn't be clicking it on HN and reading the contents of Linus' points. As to the actual detail of the author's proposed rewordings: > I'm not talking about the changes themselves - I can live with them. But the _rationale_ is pure and utter garbage, and dangerously so. becomes > These changes…

Agreed, The author in summary states:

> It [the rewrite] has 43% as many words, but loses none of the meaning. It's still forceful and unambiguous.

Yet, I found the rewrite to be feeble and ambivalent.

> If you were in the "I'm afraid that being nicer would hurt Linux" group, do you think that this email is worse? Yes.

I wanted to add one additional question. Are there environments where ad hominem and disrespect are actually important cultivators of competency and reverence for the nature of the underlying task. Might there be instances where the collective is better off with Mr. Torvalds than Mr. Rogers?

Re: A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source

#14

Post by nlawalker » Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 2:47 PM UTC

hitekker wrote: post #7

Linus seems like a jerk if you see him as an entitled engineer maintaining a popular OSS library. But if you instead see him as a CEO, responsible for every single part of the Linux kernel, running on one billion machines, his behavior becomes natural. Even warranted, since, often-times the people at the recieving end of his wrath are not making some whoops-daisy technical mistake; they are trying to exert power and…

>> the stakes are enormous

This is the key difference between kernel development and other volunteer efforts.

Most volunteer efforts are worse off when people are scared away by strong language and pointed explanations of their shortcomings because their performance isn't really that important. It's not that big of a deal if you spill something at the food kitchen or goof up part of the set of the school play.

The kernel is not a typical volunteer effort. You can't show up with nothing but goodwill and be a net good. It requires skill and discipline, and people who don't have that but try to inject themselves into the process need to be told to go away for the good of the project. Pretending otherwise only causes people to get their feelings hurt. I wonder if there should be a different word for it than "volunteer", because the connotation of that word is that showing up and wanting to be helpful is enough.

Re: A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source

#15

Post by loriverkutya » Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 3:01 PM UTC

hitekker wrote: post #7

Linus seems like a jerk if you see him as an entitled engineer maintaining a popular OSS library. But if you instead see him as a CEO, responsible for every single part of the Linux kernel, running on one billion machines, his behavior becomes natural. Even warranted, since, often-times the people at the recieving end of his wrath are not making some whoops-daisy technical mistake; they are trying to exert power and…

> But if you instead see him as a CEO,

Still seems like a jerk to me.

Re: A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source

#16

Post by busterarm » Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 3:22 PM UTC

This "Linus is a jerk" meme is old and tired.

The moral-superiority bullies are jerks too.

Same as people who use their position to push their politics.

Maybe we should all just be adults and focus on the work.

Re: A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source

#17

Post by benologist » Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 3:41 PM UTC

hitekker wrote: post #7

Linus seems like a jerk if you see him as an entitled engineer maintaining a popular OSS library. But if you instead see him as a CEO, responsible for every single part of the Linux kernel, running on one billion machines, his behavior becomes natural. Even warranted, since, often-times the people at the recieving end of his wrath are not making some whoops-daisy technical mistake; they are trying to exert power and…

Don't you think Linus could solve those problems without being a jerk though? If he could, then maybe shitty attitudes are just superfluous or even impeding his objectives...

Re: A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source

#18

Post by tannhauser23 » Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 3:58 PM UTC

It's amusing to watch people defend Linus every time a post mentions his abrasive style. They always offer the same set of excuses: Linux is too important to leave to nice people! Linus only does this to people who should know better! Get thicker skin! Etc etc.

It's the same set of excuses that justify assholes in any profession, and it suffers from the same flaw: it's not actually necessary to be a dickhead to be good at your job. In fact, being a dick to others makes it less likely for good, qualified, and smart people to want to work with you.

Linus will continue being a dick to others because of who he is - that's never gonna change. But I wish people would stop sticking up for his bad behavior. I don't want people in other OSS projects emulating him.

Re: A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source

#19

Post by MrStonedOne » Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 4:06 PM UTC

tannhauser23 wrote: post #18

It's amusing to watch people defend Linus every time a post mentions his abrasive style. They always offer the same set of excuses: Linux is too important to leave to nice people! Linus only does this to people who should know better! Get thicker skin! Etc etc. It's the same set of excuses that justify assholes in any profession, and it suffers from the same flaw: it's not actually necessary to be a dickhead to be go…

>it's not actually necessary to be a dickhead to be good at your job.

The reverse is also true.

Re: A Case Study in Not Being a Jerk in Open Source

#20

Post by UncleMeat » Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 4:22 PM UTC

davidkuhta wrote: post #13

lucideer wrote: post #6

If Linus had written the reworded email the author is proposing here, this author wouldn't be writing this blog post, and we wouldn't be clicking it on HN and reading the contents of Linus' points. As to the actual detail of the author's proposed rewordings: > I'm not talking about the changes themselves - I can live with them. But the _rationale_ is pure and utter garbage, and dangerously so. becomes > These changes…

Agreed, The author in summary states: > It [the rewrite] has 43% as many words, but loses none of the meaning. It's still forceful and unambiguous. Yet, I found the rewrite to be feeble and ambivalent. > If you were in the "I'm afraid that being nicer would hurt Linux" group, do you think that this email is worse? Yes. I wanted to add one additional question. Are there environments where ad hominem and disrespect are…

People have done science to answer your last question. In general the answer is no.