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Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

nytimes.com

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Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#301

Post by maxerickson »

downandout wrote: post #291
DmenshunlAnlsis wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually you just dodged the cogent response you received. Because many of these people are essentially refugees fleeing violence and extreme poverty in their home countries. Instead of helping these people we're tearing them from their families. Then you framed your reply in terms of Mexico only, which ignored places like El Salvador, although maybe that’s just more “Mexico” in your mind? Point being, you’ve gotten…

I responded to that comment up above. I focused on Mexico because that is by far the largest source of illegal immigrants to the US. Not a single reply has answered my question as to why anyone would endorse illegal immigration. Many countries have many problems, we cannot just take in all of their residents. I think it’s terrible that families are being separated. But I don’t know of another solution when their pare…

Sure I did. Because it's a minor crime and many of the people are involved are fleeing real danger. That's plenty enough reason to take a nuanced approach to dealing with the minor crime.

Most of the world has agreed to simply not charge refugees with entry crimes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_Relating_to_the_Sta...

But they aren't great.

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#302

Post by PrimHelios »

downandout wrote: post #287
DmenshunlAnlsis wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the love of god, stick to the rant in your profile. As of May 28, 2018, after nearly 7 years and over 13K karma points, I am no longer going to be very active on HN. This used to be a place where thoughtful conversation could take place; now it's nothing more than a den of bullies attempting to spread misinformation that supports their political views. Enjoy your echo chamber everyone. The irony given the sheer v…

I actually started this this with 1 comment genuinely asking how people could possibly endorse illegal immigration. No one actually expressed any defensible position, and they still haven’t. When people reply, I need to respond to those comments. And what I said stands. I rarely comment here anymore. I have as much right to be here as you do.

>No one actually expressed any defensible position, and they still haven’t

No, nobody has given you a position you agree with. You can't just say "EVERYTHING I DISAGREE WITH IS INDEFENSIBLE HURR DURR", that's not how things work.

Whether or not you agree is irrelevant, but you clearly can't see that, so arguing with you is just a waste of time.

Grow up.

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#303

Post by PrimHelios »

patrickg_zill wrote: post #186
anigbrowl wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a lot easier said than done. Microsoft might decide to look ahead to a time when Trump is not in office. Are the short-term gains worth the long term reputational damage?

They bought Skype and turned over the keys to it, to the NSA. Did it seriously hurt their reputation? They added telemetry which can't be easily disabled, to all parts of Windows desktop OS - did that seriously hurt their reputation? Supposedly they sell stuff to the DIA, DoD and NSA - what is the long term reputational damage from that? They sell stuff to police departments, like the Ferguson police that (allegedly/…

>allegedly/from one point of view

What's alleged is whether or not the shootings were legal. It isn't a point of view that those men are dead because of a cop.

EDIT: Downvoted for stating a fact.

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#304

Post by 75dvtwin »

75dvtwin wrote: post #170
i_dont_know_ wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're getting it very wrong; this isn't about people saying "let's just allow illegal immigrants the full rights of legal immigrants". There are some people saying that, but they're a small minority. This is about saying "some people have come here illegally. let's not psychologically torture their children for it" You can be for legal migration and the humane treatment of people at the same time.

@i_dont_know, I think you are getting it very wrong. A humane thing to do, is for the parents that are committing the crime of illegal entry, and being deported -- to take their children with them. But instead, they are dropping their kids off here, knowing that US cannot deport them, together with their parents. And then they are crying-wolf, together with a few intellectually-dishonest politicians, that US immigrat…

It seems that US admin, at least temporarily resolved this. children will stay together with parents.

Trying to put myself into shoes of those parents or children , the feeling must be horrifying.

I guess the horribleness of the situation, is the same regardless of the nature of the crime.

I wonder if criminal offenders will demand similar treatment, and argue in court, that their offense justifies similar treatment.

Is there a country/policy that allows children and parents to stay together in temporary incarceration or detention? This is one of those things, I hope none of us would have to experience.

Also, as I am reading more: it seems that there are 2 separate initial positions:

A) one that every illegal immigrant must be treated as asylum seeker, unless proven otherwise.

B) An illegal immigrant committed a crime, and is not an asylum seeker. That is: asylum seeker must report him/herself as such, at the legal border entry -- and let the border agent determine next steps.

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#305

Post by downandout »

PrimHelios wrote: post #302
downandout wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually started this this with 1 comment genuinely asking how people could possibly endorse illegal immigration. No one actually expressed any defensible position, and they still haven’t. When people reply, I need to respond to those comments. And what I said stands. I rarely comment here anymore. I have as much right to be here as you do.

>No one actually expressed any defensible position, and they still haven’t No, nobody has given you a position you agree with. You can't just say "EVERYTHING I DISAGREE WITH IS INDEFENSIBLE HURR DURR", that's not how things work. Whether or not you agree is irrelevant, but you clearly can't see that, so arguing with you is just a waste of time. Grow up.

Nobody has given me anything to agree with or not. They just say that my position is wrong, and have no solutions.

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#306

Post by downandout »

eeeuo wrote: post #297
downandout wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I responded to that comment up above. I focused on Mexico because that is by far the largest source of illegal immigrants to the US. Not a single reply has answered my question as to why anyone would endorse illegal immigration. Many countries have many problems, we cannot just take in all of their residents. I think it’s terrible that families are being separated. But I don’t know of another solution when their pare…

The solution is to not separate them. You're not arguing in good faith when you suggest that the two possible binary outcomes are (a) unrestricted immigration or (b) separating kids from their parents. Many of the illegal immigrants come to the border to flee violence or crippling poverty. They have to bring their kids. If they had the time or the income or the support system to migrate legally, they would. With rega…

I fail to see why Americans are not within their rights to protest laws that they feel are unjust

So you feel that restrictions on immigration are unjust? The law doesn't say that children must be seperated from their parents at the border. That's simply a natural consequence of breaking the law - the parent goes to jail, and something has to be done with any children they chose to bring to the crime scene. US citizens are jailed everyday, for small things like driving without a license, and if their kids are in the car, those kids go to Child Protective Services. In many cases, the parents can't afford to bail out and the children wind up in foster homes for months or years while the parent serves their sentence and then fights to get custody back.

This is all very ugly, but it all starts with a conscious decision to break the law with children in tow.

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#307

Post by PrimHelios »

downandout wrote: post #305
PrimHelios wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No one actually expressed any defensible position, and they still haven’t No, nobody has given you a position you agree with. You can't just say "EVERYTHING I DISAGREE WITH IS INDEFENSIBLE HURR DURR", that's not how things work. Whether or not you agree is irrelevant, but you clearly can't see that, so arguing with you is just a waste of time. Grow up.

Nobody has given me anything to agree with or not. They just say that my position is wrong, and have no solutions.

You have had 2, but I guess they don't count.

Watch this:

Our economy depends on """illegal""" immigrants in order to survive things like harvest season.

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#308

Post by downandout »

PrimHelios wrote: post #307
downandout wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody has given me anything to agree with or not. They just say that my position is wrong, and have no solutions.

You have had 2, but I guess they don't count. Watch this: Our economy depends on """illegal""" immigrants in order to survive things like harvest season.

It doesn't count when people say we should just open up the borders to anyone that claims that their country is poor or that life in Mexico kind of sucks. I feel bad for them, but that doesn't mean we can take care of them over here. So the "let's let all of Mexico in and we can hold hands and sing kum ba yah" position is not defensible.

Also, why the quotes around "illegal"? When you enter a country illegally, you are an illegal immigrant. Has PC culture gotten so out of hand that simply using the proper legal terminology is now offensive?

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#309

Post by downandout »

evanlivingston wrote: post #296
downandout wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually started this this with 1 comment genuinely asking how people could possibly endorse illegal immigration. No one actually expressed any defensible position, and they still haven’t. When people reply, I need to respond to those comments. And what I said stands. I rarely comment here anymore. I have as much right to be here as you do.

I expressed a position upthread but you didn't reply.

I actually did reply to your comment about unethical laws. It isn't a law that children and parents must be separated at the border; that would indeed be unethical. But part of the whole scheme of crime and punishment is that when you break the law, you go to jail. So when these parents choose to break the law, by default, the parents and children wind up separated because the parent chose to break the law and is now in custody.

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#310

Post by PrimHelios »

downandout wrote: post #308
PrimHelios wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have had 2, but I guess they don't count. Watch this: Our economy depends on """illegal""" immigrants in order to survive things like harvest season.

It doesn't count when people say we should just open up the borders to anyone that claims that their country is poor or that life in Mexico kind of sucks. I feel bad for them, but that doesn't mean we can take care of them over here. So the "let's let all of Mexico in and we can hold hands and sing kum ba yah" position is not defensible. Also, why the quotes around "illegal"? When you enter a country illegally, you a…

>It doesn't count when

So yeah, everything you disagree with doesn't count. Thanks for wasting my time.

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