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Keybase Exploding Messages

keybase.io

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Re: Keybase Exploding Messages

#61

Post by OldSchoolJohnny »

lakechfoma wrote: post #45
malgorithms wrote: post #38

Author here. I'm seeing the same comment in 4 different places on here, worded with various amounts of hostility. I now wish I had addressed this in the FAQ on the post. There's the suggestion that an exploding feature is worthless, given your partner can just take a screenshot or video of what you sent. This suggestion is missing (1) that your relationship with a partner is disproportionately okay at the time you se…

I'm not a Snapchat user but doesn't that app, at least on Android, alert senders when a receiver takes a screenshot? You can still take a picture with a second device and that functionality isn't totally portable, but interesting feature. Do you think that concept has any utility here?

Good thing there are no other devices in the world that can take a picture of another devices screen. /s

Re: Keybase Exploding Messages

#63

Post by wazanator »

Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #8

This very article shows you the problem with "features" like this. You see that video demonstrating the feature? Notice how you can read the content of the message which was supposedly deleted?

If you don't trust the receiver you should not be sending them anything sensitive to begin with.

This feature just eliminates the messages in case something happens to the recipent or their device if either become compromised.

Let's say I work IT and user Bob forgot their password again and needs a temporary reset. I can message him his temporary password that expires in 3 minutes so that they can login and set a new one.

Re: Keybase Exploding Messages

#64

Post by geofft »

malgorithms wrote: post #38

Author here. I'm seeing the same comment in 4 different places on here, worded with various amounts of hostility. I now wish I had addressed this in the FAQ on the post. There's the suggestion that an exploding feature is worthless, given your partner can just take a screenshot or video of what you sent. This suggestion is missing (1) that your relationship with a partner is disproportionately okay at the time you se…

> SnapChat, as far as I know, has none of the cryptographic implementation of Keybase. And yet it has likely protected hundreds of thousands of kids from severe bullying.

Is this true? (Asking with no implication of criticism or being a leading question - I just genuinely don't know the answer)

I can believe both that these teens were going to sext each other anyway and Snapchat is keeping them safer, or that they weren't going to and Snapchat has convinced them that it can be done more safely than it can actually be done.

Has anyone done studies on this? (Is it even possible to do studies? I suppose you'd either need information from Snapchat itself on how often they detect screenshots, or from high schools on bullying cases over time and whether Snapchat is involved + hope that bullying cases that get escalated to adults at high schools is a meaningful proxy for actual bullying.)

I'm inclined to buy your argument that because of the implementation making stored pictures not the default, and the social pressure not to take screenshots, probably Snapchat's disappearing messages are better than iMessage. But this seems like the sort of thing that's dangerous enough (in either direction! if the technology works and we refuse to deploy it, that's bad too) that hard data would be useful.

Re: Keybase Exploding Messages

#65

Post by snvzz »

malgorithms wrote: post #38

Author here. I'm seeing the same comment in 4 different places on here, worded with various amounts of hostility. I now wish I had addressed this in the FAQ on the post. There's the suggestion that an exploding feature is worthless, given your partner can just take a screenshot or video of what you sent. This suggestion is missing (1) that your relationship with a partner is disproportionately okay at the time you se…

Fine, but I never want to receive one of these. How do I turn it off?

Re: Keybase Exploding Messages

#66

Post by notheguyouthink »

volaski wrote: post #46
malgorithms wrote: post #38

Author here. I'm seeing the same comment in 4 different places on here, worded with various amounts of hostility. I now wish I had addressed this in the FAQ on the post. There's the suggestion that an exploding feature is worthless, given your partner can just take a screenshot or video of what you sent. This suggestion is missing (1) that your relationship with a partner is disproportionately okay at the time you se…

I don't think anyone's being as hostile as you make it out to be. They're just talking about how you can't really guarantee safety, which is true. And I find it weird that you're comparing yourself with Snapchat. Snapchat is a casual app, targeted at a completely different audience than the people Keybase targets (at least that's the impression I got so far) Also Snapchat is mobile only product, which makes all the d…

Fwiw, as a non-security at risk casual user; I really enjoy ephemeral chat. I don't like snapchat as a main chat application (ie, Telegram-esque replacement), and aside from that I don't have many options. I think we're going to try Keybase out, assuming it has native desktop clients.

Re: Keybase Exploding Messages

#67

Post by wazanator »

24gttghh wrote: post #60
ohazi wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the FAQ: Does the timer begin when the message is sent or received? Sent. This seems like the only sensible answer for group chats. And we can't have a different answer for 1-on-1 chats and group chats. That would confuse people. Not the kind of person who reads an FAQ such as yourself, of course. So our answer is simple: you set a timer and the message is gone after that time.

>And we can't have a different answer for 1-on-1 chats and group chats. What might be the reasoning here that Keybase won't do it yet Signal messenger does start the timer on the "receive" end?

It narrows the attack window. It's not hard to imagine a scenario where something happens to the receiver and as the sender you didn't realize this until you sent a few messages but the third party who got the receiver won't be able to access the device for some time. Hopefully by the time they get in they have self destroyed.

Re: Keybase Exploding Messages

#68

Post by 456hdsaq234g »

I used to be against this style of 'DRM' -- either analog hole (screenshot or physical camera) or client subversion (client logs all messages out of band forever); but I think I misunderstood the use case. This is about changing behaviours to be more ephemeral; An expectation that your messages are not there forever. In a world of "unlock your phone or arrest" these features are very important. Thanks for rolling this out KB

Re: Keybase Exploding Messages

#69

Post by danvayn »

geofft wrote: post #64
malgorithms wrote: post #38

Author here. I'm seeing the same comment in 4 different places on here, worded with various amounts of hostility. I now wish I had addressed this in the FAQ on the post. There's the suggestion that an exploding feature is worthless, given your partner can just take a screenshot or video of what you sent. This suggestion is missing (1) that your relationship with a partner is disproportionately okay at the time you se…

> SnapChat, as far as I know, has none of the cryptographic implementation of Keybase. And yet it has likely protected hundreds of thousands of kids from severe bullying. Is this true? (Asking with no implication of criticism or being a leading question - I just genuinely don't know the answer) I can believe both that these teens were going to sext each other anyway and Snapchat is keeping them safer, or that they we…

slightly unrelated note but you both are also talking about the way the official Snapchat app chooses to handle snaps (opt in and notifying the user) when theres a multitude of workarounds and non-official snap apps only a google away that make it extremely simple to save a picture someone sent to you without the sender knowing.

Preventing phone-screen capture isn't really something you can't get around but Snapchat could certainly afford to put their money where the mouth is and try to provide their users with a safer experience by cracking down on 3rd party apps.

Re: Keybase Exploding Messages

#70

Post by madrox »

geofft wrote: post #64
malgorithms wrote: post #38

Author here. I'm seeing the same comment in 4 different places on here, worded with various amounts of hostility. I now wish I had addressed this in the FAQ on the post. There's the suggestion that an exploding feature is worthless, given your partner can just take a screenshot or video of what you sent. This suggestion is missing (1) that your relationship with a partner is disproportionately okay at the time you se…

> SnapChat, as far as I know, has none of the cryptographic implementation of Keybase. And yet it has likely protected hundreds of thousands of kids from severe bullying. Is this true? (Asking with no implication of criticism or being a leading question - I just genuinely don't know the answer) I can believe both that these teens were going to sext each other anyway and Snapchat is keeping them safer, or that they we…

That's certainly true of Snapchat in the past: http://www.businessinsider.com/snapchat-doesnt-delete-your-p...

It's unclear how they protect images today, but they have never once mentioned any use of encryption.

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