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Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

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Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#221

Post by SlowRobotAhead »

cr1895 wrote: post #192
refoundglory wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flores does not mandate that a) every arrival be prosecuted instead of just deported (or even any arrival) b) Trump end community detention programs for immigrant families, which were very successful and far cheaper than prison under Obama So no, there are no laws mandating this. People like you are choosing to do it because they think it will deter people from arriving here. That's not a legal mandate, it's a moral…

>People like you are choosing to do it because they think it will deter people from arriving here. Immoral and repugnant as it is, it does appear to be working this way. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/world/americas/mexico-fam...

It's immoral and repugnant to enforce our border laws?

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#222

Post by iron0012 »

tome wrote: post #113
salvar wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People in general are far too immature to discuss politics. But not you, right?

Did you see hueving discussing politics?

Well, yeah, by implying that comparing ICE agents to war criminals tried at Nuremberg is an unfair thing to do--which is not at all necessarily true--he's discussing politics. Hell, he's taking a side.

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#223

Post by allenz »

prepend wrote: post #136
allenz wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When ICE violates human rights, it's no longer a free speech issue. Microsoft shouldn't work with ICE in the same way that banks shouldn't work with sanctioned oligarchs.

What about oligarchs who aren’t sanctioned? What rule of law do you apply to determine oligarchs have committed some crime? Is there a certain number of tweets where you consider an oligarch sanctioned? Do you rely on an ICC ruling? A judgement from a single nation? A UN resolution? A case being brought to the ICC? The challenge I see here is that applying an arbitrary measurement to what constitutes “ICE violates hu…

Where to draw the line is a matter of judgment for each business. All ethics and justice relies on judgment. No murderer knows whether they'll be sentenced to ten years or twenty, just as there is no list of exact crimes that will get you sanctioned by the UN.

So while I cannot answer your questions, I can point out that the UN human rights chief has denounced the ICE policy as "unconscionable". That seems like ample grounds to end a business relationship.

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#224

Post by allenz »

commandlinefan wrote: post #209
allenz wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When ICE violates human rights, it's no longer a free speech issue. Microsoft shouldn't work with ICE in the same way that banks shouldn't work with sanctioned oligarchs.

Am I the only one who appreciates the difficult situation that ICE is put in here? They're tasked with enforcing U.S. immigration law which, like any immigration law implies that only certain people are allowed to enter the country under certain circumstances. No matter what they do, they're going to be stuck dealing with otherwise decent people who are knowingly violating immigration law. I see a lot of people compl…

Here's a solution: go back to the policy under Bush or Obama. Immigration policy is rarely pleasant, and we may have different views on hard choices, but I hope we can agree when a policy is evil.

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#225

Post by refoundglory »

SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #221
cr1895 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>People like you are choosing to do it because they think it will deter people from arriving here. Immoral and repugnant as it is, it does appear to be working this way. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/world/americas/mexico-fam...

It's immoral and repugnant to enforce our border laws?

I literally just explained to you why this is not a question of enforcing the law, it is a choice to behave in an immoral and repugnant fashion that the law does not require. Make an effort to at least pretend you are keeping up with the topic.

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#226

Post by macspoofing »

woodruffw wrote: post #212
firic wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, they may apply for asylum. However, if they entered illegally, then they should be detained so that if they are not accepted for asylum then they can get deported.

First: They are not entering illegally if they intend to report within a year. Entering illegally is something that non-refugees do. This is why Nielsen's claims about "criminal refugees" are misleading at best -- she's talking about the "crime" of entering the country in the way we explicitly allow. Second: Consider what an actual refugee crisis looks like. You can't detain hundreds of thousands of people crossing o…

>First: They are not entering illegally if they intend to report within a year.

Illegal entry is illegal entry. I don't know what you're talking about. There is no exemption for asylum seekers.

>This is probably what 45 is referring to when he talks about a "loophole" in immigration law

The loophole is that the Trump administration is enforcing an existing law that was not enforced by previous administrations. You're advocating for following the precedent set by previous administrations and simply ignore the law again.

>and why he feels politically safe asking for a legislative rather than executive solution.

But it should be a legislative solution. It is a bad law that was made worse by the ninth circuit interpretation. If 1/10th of the pressure that is levied on Trump was put on Congress, this law would be changed already.

The fact that Democrats in Congress are now using this for political gains is incredibly distasteful. [1]

[1]http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/393069-schumer-rejects-go...

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#227

Post by makomk »

zimpenfish wrote: post #80
firic wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not without the senate changing a ruling that has been in effect since before Trump or Trump choosing not to enforce a law that he is required to enforce.

I've seen a lot of people far more well-informed about US politics and law say that there is no such law - this is a pure policy decision by Trump. Can you cite the law he's required to enforce here?

To give you some idea of how badly you and everyone else has been had by the media: in the hours since you posted this comment, the New York Times found out that Trump was planning to stop separating families at the border and simultaneously decided that actually, this legal restriction - which the entire press had convinced everyone Trump just made up - exists after all and will probably stop him from doing so. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/us/politics/trump-immigra...

Not only is everyone going along with the new narrative, they're confident that Trump supporters are the ones who are too blind to see that today's talking point contradicts the previous talking point.

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#228

Post by jgaa »

blindwatchmaker wrote: post #218
jgaa wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Corporations are no less evil than governments. If anything, they may be more evil, as they are motivated solely by profit and have no particular reason to care about the population at large. Corporations are accountable. They are accountable as entities, and as individuals (owners, managers, employees). If they do fatal decisions, the corporation may go bankrupt. If people act immoral, they may get fired. If they…

Meanwhile in the real world, many corporations get away with doing all these things, abusing labour, regulatory capture and the people running them get rich as Croesus doing it.

Yes. And often with support from the Government.

In USA, corruption is regulated by law... Politics is all about getting financial support and basically selling laws and policies to the highest bidder.

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#229

Post by adjkant »

sheepmullet wrote: post #125
adjkant wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have the stuff to show it's actually hundreds of thousands? How much of a difference is the education quality? Public schools are mostly funded by local taxes, yes? How exactly does this come into play? All of this is still to say that you think your kid going to a slightly worse school is worth messing up all these lives so horrifically? I'm not saying let's take every single person that goes to the US or tha…

> I'm just saying let's not make a Holocaust in its name, and these policies are literally starting to mirror those types of events. I think you have been mislead by the media - at worst it is applying the existing long standing detainment practice to another maybe 20% of cases. > Do you have the stuff to show it's actually hundreds of thousands? More than 20% of public school students in California are classified as…

So a few notes:

1. A single state is not representative of the entire country. Let's keep in mind this is probably the state hardest impacted along with Texas.

2. Of those English learners, what percentage are illegal immigrants realistically? What about citizens who speak Spanish primarily? In California, this is not uncommon.

3. How would you spend 30% of your income on education at the K-6 level (where 3/4ths of these students are)? That seems virtually impossible no matter the income bracket and way you count taxes. If you're paying for private school, you don't have this problem.

4. If this is indeed such a large group at many schools, then those programs listed on the item you linked should be effective in serving both large populations, yes? If they aren't is that really the fault of immigration or simply a failing of public schools, which is not inherently due to immigration.

5. All of this to say that your kid getting slightly less time in K-6 education (after that, the population of English learners is about 6% of the population, which doesn't even take into account English learners who are not illegal immigrants, so likely even as low as 3% or less) is worth this hardline immigration policy? In a class of 40 students, that's two maximum from 6 grade on. I don't see how you can justify that.

6. Again, this is the state hardest impacted. Because California public schools have 3% or lower English learners that are illegal immigrants in their public high schools and other states likely have far less, we separate families?

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#230

Post by macspoofing »

evfanknitram wrote: post #20
macspoofing wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The legal way to claim asylum is to do so from official points of entry.

So if you are out of resources, cross the border at another point and then seek asylum the proper response it to lock up your kids.

>the proper response it to lock up your kids.

The irony is that the ninth circuit ruling mandating separation was done to prevent locking up children.

And no, it's not the proper response but it is the legal one as it stands today. GoP is working on a clean bill to do away with seperation. Democrats are expected to vote against it. So there's that.

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