The Machine Fired Me • Hacker News Board

Re: The Machine Fired Me

#491

Post by walshemj » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 5:14 PM UTC

wjnc wrote: post #209

rectang wrote: post #45

> I missed 3 weeks of pay because no one could stop the machine. Why has this company not made their loyal worker whole? He stayed there when they needed him even when their system was trying to lock him out. They need to fix this. If they don't, they are not a company anyone should work for. Perhaps the worker did not want to risk making a big stink, but a manager should have taken the initiative. Humans were involv…

I agree. It's a theme I run across in many US-worker situations we read about on HN. There is such a lack of basic rights, but also basic norms when relating to workers. Ethical behaviour, from my perspective, would be to compensate the employee, regardsless of his legal rights. In a more worker-central system, the worker should have easy recourse to an official judgement for his money. In the Netherlands there is ev…

Failure to pay employees is "wage theft" in the USA.

The Netherlands sounds a bit employer friendly in the UK mess up at all in firing some one you automatically lose even if the employee is as guilty as sin and was caught bang to rights

Re: The Machine Fired Me

#492

Post by jiveturkey » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 5:15 PM UTC

romwell wrote: post #44

I have a story in a similar vein, although a much less scary one. In that instance, The Machine Cleaned Out My Desk. I had a cubicle at the company HQ, but was for some period of time working from home in another state. I still kept quite a few things in the cubicle (notebooks, mugs, etc), which I used when I was in the area. When I finally came back, I noticed, after a month or two, that my office number has not bee…

> perhaps it's best to have people on-site manually approve any destructive steps.

Or, almost certainly cheaper, manually deal with the 1 in 10,000 case like yours.

In this case, a simple notes field in the request system would perhaps have sufficed. Perhaps there is/was, and it wasn't filled out because it wasn't recognized as being some manner of exceptional request. Perhaps if there was manual approval, removal of your stuff would still have been approved.

It's literally impossible to catch all of these, because human error will creep in. Sounds to me like your case was dealt with adequately. (Perhaps not from your personal perspective!!)

Re: The Machine Fired Me

#493

Post by otakucode » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 5:16 PM UTC

c12 wrote: post #327

lmm wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It shouldn't. Blindly following orders from humans has much the same results.

When the orders come from a human then there is someone who is ultimatly responsible, someone to put through the courts, someone to throw in jail. When the orders come from a computer. Will any of that happen, will there be someone responsible?

Where the orders comes from has nothing to do with anything in terms of who is held responsible. The person who acts is responsible. That they were following orders is not a valid excuse. This was what the Nuremberg Trials established for us. It doesn't matter if someone told you to do something, you still have the only capacity to make the decision whether you actually do it or not.

Humans are very quick to abdicate their own moral authority, and it is the most repugnant human impulse that exists. If someone puts a gun to your head, and tells you to kill someone or die, you are still responsible for whoever you kill. Others might consider your actions understandable, even forgivable, but you're still a murderer and still one who valued their own life above anothers.

If you do something because you were "just doing your job", that's even worse. That's exactly identical to doing something for money. Which is usually looked very poorly on by society.

Re: The Machine Fired Me

#494

Post by s73v3r_ » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 5:18 PM UTC

rectang wrote: post #314

hueving wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of what you says really applies in this case. According to the article the thing that triggered this was the failure to renew his contract. If it had renewal intervals, that means he wasn't legally entitled to 3 years. This is likely why he wasn't paid for the interim either. The best the company could do would likely be to bump up the future rate or offer a "signing bonus". Being a contractor is not at all like…

While I agree with the letter of your legal analysis, it should not be "the best the company could do" to make the worker whole. It ought to be expected that both parties behave ethically. The worker should not abandon the company during their time of need because of an unfortunate legal SNAFU. The company, in turn, should take it upon themselves to ensure that the worker doesn't suffer economically for having done t…

If they're not being paid, then yes, the worker should abandon the company.

Re: The Machine Fired Me

#495

Post by walshemj » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 5:19 PM UTC

hcknwscommenter wrote: post #226

paulie_a wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you think you will enforce that contract? Hire a lawyer? You might as well go to the ATM grab as much cash as you possible. Then put it all in a garbage can and light a match. It will be far less costly and more productive then attempting pursue that contract.

Sue in small claims court for week 1. Win. Obtain judgment. File lien against company assets. Sue in small claims court for week 2. Win. Obtain judgment. File lien against company assets. Repeat as necessary. Offer settlement in return for not suing anymore.

Or has been done in the UK send bailiffs to the company head office :-)

Of course you'd shop around for the Bailiff company with the worse reputation and get them to send the lads who moonlight at that dodgy night club as Bouncers.

Re: The Machine Fired Me

#496

Post by walshemj » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 5:20 PM UTC

paulie_a wrote: post #293

hcknwscommenter wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sue in small claims court for week 1. Win. Obtain judgment. File lien against company assets. Sue in small claims court for week 2. Win. Obtain judgment. File lien against company assets. Repeat as necessary. Offer settlement in return for not suing anymore.

In reality it would be: spend court fees..sue in small claims court. Win. Good luck collecting in many cases. Filing for a lien? Good luck with that pointless venture...

Cant you send in bailiffs in to recover the costs?

Re: The Machine Fired Me

#497

Post by otakucode » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 5:22 PM UTC

romwell wrote: post #44

I have a story in a similar vein, although a much less scary one. In that instance, The Machine Cleaned Out My Desk. I had a cubicle at the company HQ, but was for some period of time working from home in another state. I still kept quite a few things in the cubicle (notebooks, mugs, etc), which I used when I was in the area. When I finally came back, I noticed, after a month or two, that my office number has not bee…

Or, stop letting the people with business degrees effectively write software via SAP. They're not trained for it, and they don't know how to think through edge cases or reduce fragile entanglements across areas of concern.

Idea: Require every action taken by an SAP or similar system be tagged with the name and telephone number of the MBA who created the action in SAP.

Re: The Machine Fired Me

#498

Post by walshemj » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 5:22 PM UTC

kbart wrote: post #311

pkaye wrote: post #176

When a previous company was acquired, everyone got a new job offer generally better since the company wanted everyone to stick around. Well except for one guy. A junior engineer in one of our teams. He was a really good engineer too so we were shocked. It turned out he had the same first and last name as another person at our company so they thought it was a duplicate entry and omitted it. Eventually a offer was prep…

Heh, that's the real problem actually with buggy name-based systems. In my current company we have a person officially called "Name Surname 2" for the same reason.

Don't US payroll/hr systems use SS number its one of the few cases where it makes sense to use it

Re: The Machine Fired Me

#499

Post by s73v3r_ » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 5:23 PM UTC

paulie_a wrote: post #293

hcknwscommenter wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sue in small claims court for week 1. Win. Obtain judgment. File lien against company assets. Sue in small claims court for week 2. Win. Obtain judgment. File lien against company assets. Repeat as necessary. Offer settlement in return for not suing anymore.

In reality it would be: spend court fees..sue in small claims court. Win. Good luck collecting in many cases. Filing for a lien? Good luck with that pointless venture...

Once you have a judgement, you contact the Sheriff to help you collect. With a judgement, you are able to take things from them in order to make your judgement. Usually once that actually starts happening, the company will cut you a check pretty quick.

Re: The Machine Fired Me

#500

Post by walshemj » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 5:25 PM UTC

garmaine wrote: post #325

kbart wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even in such case contract usually has a clause about premature termination and related compensation.

Did you read the article? There was no premature termination here. He was “fired” exactly because his contract expired. It’s a shit situation and the company should have made him whole, but on ethical not legal grounds.

By mistake therefore the employers is liable for breach of contract.

You cant get out of "frustrating a contract" by saying its a mistake