Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#271

Post by pluma » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 11:22 AM UTC

factsaresacred wrote: post #225

drb91 wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s the worst that can happen if we let them in? Our economy improves and our crime rate drops?

1. There's another billion waiting to enter. 2. There is legal process of entry, they should follow it. 3. Illegal immigration drives down wages, crowding out the most vulnerable citizens of the US. 4. A country decides how and when people are allowed in. There are numerous downsides to mass immigration including stress on services like health, social services and accommodation. Again, to the detriment of citizens.

1. Stop believing in your own propaganda. There are nicer places to immigrate to than the US.

2. The only way to be granted asylum is if you're already in the US. The only way to enter the US legally is using an intentionally overloaded system that may require you to wait for months only to be denied entry -- which is not exactly an option if you're genuinely in need of asylum.

3. Corporations drive down wages. Corporations are exploiting illegal immigrants. Maybe the problem is your government isn't cracking down on illegal employment enough?

4a. I see you don't agree with the concept of asylum. That's okay, but it still makes you a terrible human being. Just saying.

4b. Show me a study that proves that immigration is a long-term net negative. There are cherry-picked samples showing short-term negatives, yes, but they're intentionally misleading.

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#272

Post by downandout » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 11:28 AM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #265

downandout wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

babies and toddlers of immigrants crossing the border illegally are being separated from their parents in the hundreds. We have no evidence that these parents have been charged with violent or other crimes of a nature that might justify the separation for the children's safety. When parents commit crimes, they are going to wind up being separated from their children. This is a consequence of breaking the law - you co…

Sure, lots of people actually are in favor of the sort of illegal immigration where if people seek asylum they are not prosecuted for the misdemeanor border crossing at least until their asylum application is rejected (and maybe they just aren't prosecuted). But why would the "greatest" country in the world use any nuance when dealing with vulnerable people, right, nuance is for rich people and their powerful lawyers…

Are misdemeanors not crimes? The term misdemeanor simply means that it is a crime punishable by up to 364 days in prison. Further, illegal reentry is a felony, and in many of these cases, it’s reentry.

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#273

Post by pluma » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 11:32 AM UTC

factsaresacred wrote: post #242

drb91 wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's another billion waiting to enter. I think you’re vastly overestimating how much people want to move here. Furthermore, legal immigration would not lower wages. It’s the fact that we don’t provide a legalization process that allows people to charge under minimum wage.

> I think you’re vastly overestimating how much people want to move here. I am not. The US is still the top destination for migrants. > legal immigration would not lower wages I agree. We're talking about illegal immigration though. If everybody followed the legal process, great!

> I am not. The US is still the top destination for migrants.

Is it? Most numbers seem to compare individual countries, which disproportionally overrepresents the US due to its sheer size.

However by comparison, in 2016 [0][1]:

* 1.49 million immigrants moved to the US

* 2 million immigrants moved to the EU

* 753,060 immigrants were naturalized in the US

* 1 million immigrants were granted citizenship in the EU

So I guess that's another category in which the US has been superseded by the EU (like e.g. GDP, exports and tourism).

[0]: https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/frequently-requested...

[1]: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/...

EDIT: If you think this is an unfair comparison, remember that EU citizenship grants you the right to live and work in any EU country. Citizenship in any one member country is effectively for most intents and purposes citizenship in all of the EU.

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#274

Post by downandout » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 11:34 AM UTC

16bytes wrote: post #266

downandout wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

babies and toddlers of immigrants crossing the border illegally are being separated from their parents in the hundreds. We have no evidence that these parents have been charged with violent or other crimes of a nature that might justify the separation for the children's safety. When parents commit crimes, they are going to wind up being separated from their children. This is a consequence of breaking the law - you co…

Entering the country illegally is a misdemeanor. Is it reasonable to separate children for a few hours to process the adults? Sure. This is what border control does before handing people over to ICE. But there are 2000 kids that ICE has separated for longer than a week (even months) and even placed in social care. You wouldn't do that if one was caught speeding, but for illegal crossings it's ok?

Speeding is an infraction (that’s a legal term). Misdemeanors are crimes punishable by up to 364 days in prison. These two things are not remotely close to one another.

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#275

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 11:39 AM UTC

downandout wrote: post #272

maxerickson wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, lots of people actually are in favor of the sort of illegal immigration where if people seek asylum they are not prosecuted for the misdemeanor border crossing at least until their asylum application is rejected (and maybe they just aren't prosecuted). But why would the "greatest" country in the world use any nuance when dealing with vulnerable people, right, nuance is for rich people and their powerful lawyers…

Are misdemeanors not crimes? The term misdemeanor simply means that it is a crime punishable by up to 364 days in prison. Further, illegal reentry is a felony, and in many of these cases, it’s reentry.

[deleted]

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#276

Post by maxerickson » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 11:44 AM UTC

downandout wrote: post #272

maxerickson wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, lots of people actually are in favor of the sort of illegal immigration where if people seek asylum they are not prosecuted for the misdemeanor border crossing at least until their asylum application is rejected (and maybe they just aren't prosecuted). But why would the "greatest" country in the world use any nuance when dealing with vulnerable people, right, nuance is for rich people and their powerful lawyers…

Are misdemeanors not crimes? The term misdemeanor simply means that it is a crime punishable by up to 364 days in prison. Further, illegal reentry is a felony, and in many of these cases, it’s reentry.

Nothing in my comment prompts your question, I don't even come close to denying that misdemeanors are crimes.

My point is that bloviating about law and order when the crime is minor and the danger (in many cases) is real, is pathetic. It'd be less pathetic to make it clear that you think that babies should be taken away from mothers that have merely crossed the border away from an official port of entry.

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#277

Post by ihsw2 » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 12:15 PM UTC

noobermin wrote: post #204

ihsw2 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do now. Separating children from the adults they are accompanied by is a long-standing practice to prevent human trafficking and there are valid reasons for it that both sides of the aisle support, the difference is that ICE is now treating it as a criminal act requiring the aforementioned remanding into state custody while the details are sorted out. If there is an increase of "asylum seekers" then the time to pr…

There is actually no real evidence about this child trafficking idea. As far as I can tell, it's been merely floated by the right wing as a possibility.

That's an interesting statement considering the rules in place had full bipartisan support when they were enacted, I don't buy that it is exclusive to 'the right wing.'

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#278

Post by emodendroket » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 1:38 PM UTC

dmode wrote: post #190

I was lukewarm towards the rights of undocumented immigrants prior to Trump. But his actions in dehumanizing a whole class of people who are desperate for help and support as "criminals" have changed my views. As a father, the screams of children being separated from their parents is haunting. I hear the cries of my own daughter. I can't even begin to imagine her trauma if someone forcibly separated her from me. This…

What's more, according to the former head of ICE, many of these children will never be reunited with their parents. It is a cruel policy with no purpose beyond being cruel. https://mobile.twitter.com/JProskowGlobal/status/10091199153...

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#279

Post by naikrovek » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 1:40 PM UTC

downandout wrote: post #264

naikrovek wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The child-parent separation that is happening is not a law. It is a new policy by the Trump administration to separate all unauthorized entries into the country as a deterrent to illegal immigration. It is not an Obama-era policy. It is not a Clinton-era policy. It is not a law from any administration. Even if it were a law, there is exactly nothing wrong with disagreeing with cruel and unusual behavior, even if it i…

It’s a law that people go to jail when they commit crimes, such as illegal entry. When they go to jail, unfortunately they do wind up separated from their parents.

Asking for asylum is not justification for separating children from their parents permanently.

Note that it is only those who are following asylum procedure who are being separated. Illegal immigration is still happening, and those families make it into the US every day, whole. Unseparated.

Re: Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE

#280

Post by emodendroket » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 1:40 PM UTC

CMay wrote: post #200

Who says Microsoft isn't doing more good than harm by helping ICE? ICE will do their job regardless of the tech they use and for all we know, Microsoft is helping ICE reduce mistakes which would otherwise harm the people that ICE needs to manage. People in general need to be more pragmatic, because we see a lot of emotional reactions which only make things worse.

I always find this argument unconvincing. At its most extreme expression you end up with obviously bogus propositions like "Islamic terrorism is going to happen with or without you, so you might as well join ISIS and attempt to reform them from within."