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Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

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Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#91

>part of a backlash against the agency’s policy of separating children from their families at the U.S. border. Is that a policy that ICE can simply drop?

My post is describing the status quo as I understand it. I'm neither supporting nor condemning it.

There is an important legal distinction which determines whether or not you're arrested and separated from your family: asylum seeker vs criminal migrant.

If you walk up to the border patrol checkpoint and request asylum you will not be separated from your family. Once we make sure you're not a known criminal we basically let you go and put you in the queue for the asylum process.

Conversely, if you attempt to cross the border between checkpoints you are generally an economically motivated undocumented migrant. In this case, if we catch you the first time we'll essentially let you go home with a warning. The second time you do this it's a felony and you go down the felony/criminal process path. If you go down that path you are under arrest, and if you're under arrest in the United States we don't put your kids in jail with you. Children are remanded to the HHS who will either place the children with extended family, in foster care, or other things like that.

So what happened and what's changed? If you're an economically motivated migrant the best outcome is you scoot across the border undetected. The second best outcome is you get asylum status (has restrictions like you can't work). The worst outcome is you go to jail. People began gaming the system, attempting to cross the border illegally and when caught would claim to be asylum seekers. The policy difference between Obama and Trump is that Obama's administration was basically more likely to let you get away with going on the asylum track even if you'd tried to cross the border illegally.

So as it stands today ICE (if Trump ordered it) could go back to the Obama policy of granting people who cross illegally and then claim asylum status only after they've been caught. This would greatly increase the number of people on the asylum track (no separation) and decrease the number of people on the criminal track (separation). Or I guess technically Trump could order ICE not arrest anyone crossing the border illegally. You give them a court date, release them to the public, and hope they show up. The concern here is the incentives. However, without a change to the law, ICE has no choice but to separate the families when you get arrested.

The case law in question is the 1997 Flores settlement, a class action lawsuit which resulted in essentially saying ICE had to release the children since they are not being charged with a crime.

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#92

Fire every single one of those Microsoft employees. People in ICE protect me, mine, and our way of life with their lives every day of the week. I'm not going to flippantly say fuck those people because the politics of the day are making a mockery of a law that was duly imposed and enforced by both parties spanning multiple administrations because it's the fashionable political protest fad of the day. Protest the lead…

Lies. Willful lies. Absolutely everybody knows that the way these immigrants are handled changed THIS YEAR. There is no law mandating this horror. There is no concern that these children are not with their own parents (because we already knew about that possibility, and worked to identify it without wholesale kidnapping!) There is only the desire to hurt families and children in order to scare other families and children - and a whole lot of lying to pretend that's not the entire purpose.

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#93
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not without the senate changing a ruling that has been in effect since before Trump or Trump choosing not to enforce a law that he is required to enforce.

I've seen a lot of people far more well-informed about US politics and law say that there is no such law - this is a pure policy decision by Trump. Can you cite the law he's required to enforce here?

Sure: https://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2016/07/06/1...

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#94
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Governments will always do evil. Not to everyone, all of the time - but they are by nature evil. If a lot of people assume this, then eventually behaviour happens according to the expectation. Within Netherlands I assume the government is usually there to make things better (though there are exceptions). What is considered better might be completely different, but still, it's assumed to be better. I've since have a…

The whole concept of liberalism is based on the assumption that governments are extremely dangerous and potentially evil and in need of constant control by both the public and it's own institutions. Even if it appears that a specific government or institution is doing good work, it is extremely dangerous to accept that as anything other than a temporary and potentially deceiving state of affairs. Constant distrust an…

> Governments are never good, at best they are not actively harmful.

Except of course, when they are doing good.

Government is essential and its hard - attempting to juggle the needs and rights of diverse and disparate people. I get tired of the mantra that the people involved in government are inherently evil, bad, out for themselves etc. Many people who get into politics do so out of a true desire to make the lives of their fellows better - whether you agree with their stances or not.

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same way any other unionized employees do: higher wages, better benefits, collective bargaining, serious representation in the corporate hierarchy, better job security.

And Google employees don’t already that? What better benefits could a Google possibly want? How much higher could their salaries go?

What better benefits could a Google possibly want?

More vacation time, more reasonable working hours, a more transparent process for promotions and raises, better paternity/maternity polices, a seat on the board and more say into how the company is run.

There is a lot more to collective bargaining than salaries.

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#96
post #81
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Running a red light usually does not result in arrest. But if someone ran a red light and then refused to show their license and got arrested. Well, if their child was with them, then the child would not be put in the same prison that the parent was put in. ie. they would be separated. I didn't read the law so I may be mistaken, but based on my understanding is someone comes to a proper boarder control and claims asy…

>I didn't read the law so I may be mistaken You can read about the asylum process here: https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/asylum/ob...

I should have been more precise with what I wrote. I do not understand legalese and therefore base my understanding on a group of people who I feel are honest.

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#97
post #62
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN is very guilty as of this. The insistence that HN should never discuss politics is morality reprehensible. The people in this community creates many tools and products that could help or hurt a lot of people. As such, we should readily engage in political discussion so that we fully understand the impact we have.

People in general are far too immature to discuss politics. They are happy to spew opinions an complain about the ignorance of 'the other side' but they don't actually want to listen to other perspectives. Look at this thread for examples. Comparing ICE agents to Nuremberg, etc. This platform (due to the vote-based sorting) and this community are not capable of discussing politics in any meaningful sense. It's just p…

> People in general are far too immature to discuss politics.

But not you, right?

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole concept of liberalism is based on the assumption that governments are extremely dangerous and potentially evil and in need of constant control by both the public and it's own institutions. Even if it appears that a specific government or institution is doing good work, it is extremely dangerous to accept that as anything other than a temporary and potentially deceiving state of affairs. Constant distrust an…

> Governments are never good, at best they are not actively harmful. Except of course, when they are doing good. Government is essential and its hard - attempting to juggle the needs and rights of diverse and disparate people. I get tired of the mantra that the people involved in government are inherently evil, bad, out for themselves etc. Many people who get into politics do so out of a true desire to make the lives…

I'm not saying that it is inherently evil, I'm saying that you as a member of the public must assume that it at least has that potential at all times for it to function as intended.

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#99
post #88
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was Trump's water sport in Moscow story fake news? It has been widely used by CNN. As far as I know it as never been proven. Political debates are riddled with half truth, exaggerations, and carefully selected statistics. It is a slippery slope. It's not as binary as a computer program where it is either correct or not correct.

The fallacy is about doing nothing because one action might eventually lead to a bad action being taken. The solution is to still take the action (e.g. not working together), while being careful not to immediately go on a witch hunt for any deemed wrong. The response from Microsoft management is good I think. They mention it's just about email, calendar, etc. There's nothing special in providing that. The Google case…

The US constitution is built on the idea that if a power is given it will be abused, and it is this fundamental distrust of any power given and the builtin counterpowers that have made its success over the long run.

It is not a fallacy, it should be the first thing anyone should consider when establishing a new authority.

Re: Microsoft Employees Pressure Leadership to Cancel ICE Contract

#100
post #76
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Governments will always do evil. Not to everyone, all of the time - but they are by nature evil. If a lot of people assume this, then eventually behaviour happens according to the expectation. Within Netherlands I assume the government is usually there to make things better (though there are exceptions). What is considered better might be completely different, but still, it's assumed to be better. I've since have a…

>> Governments will always do evil. Not to everyone, all of the time - but they are by nature evil. >If a lot of people assume this I come from Norway - by many assumed to be among the most human and decent countries in the world. When a refugee storm hit Norwegian borders a few years ago, the cabinet assigned Antichrist herself, Sylvi Listhaug, to deal with it. It would not surprise me if Trump's advisers had her mi…

I don't know anything about Sylvi Listhaug, assisted death in Norway or the man allegedly falsely accused. You might be right about all of it but it still comes across as a ridiculous combination of strawman arguments and conflating the entire public sector and all laws into suspicious "government". Basically it boils down to "because it's not perfect, it's evil".

Would you rather there was no government?

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