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Mindfulness Meditation Impairs Task Motivation but Not Performance [pdf]

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Re: Mindfulness Meditation Impairs Task Motivation but Not Performance [pdf]

#71

Post by notduncansmith »

sebosp wrote: post #63
tsenkov wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Many people have romantic notion of transcendence and enlightement, but when meditation starts to really work they realize that's not what they actually want. Change is scary. Interesting. Would you care to share an example of this?

I see it like being aware of impulse timings in you, for example, I now and then feel the waves of both happiness and sadness, when they come and leave and I understand it's temporary, I realize the mood it leaves and that it will end and as I'm focusing on the effect of it on the body I don't quite take so much place on happiness/depression, more like observe and let it be. This state of acceptance is strange for me…

This sounds familiar. For a long time, I didn’t know how to internally straddle the line between “acceptance” (as you put it) and nihilism. Now, while I feel I have a grip on it internally, I still struggle to communicate with others in a relatable way.

When my opinion is requested, I usually find it most natural to come to the conclusion of “inconclusive”, which people around me find to be evidence of either weak character or lack of trust.

I find it difficult to be outraged about anything for more than a few seconds, after which I’d prefer to either talk about solutions or stop bathing in self-congratulatory angst that has no action justifying it. I also find it very hard to talk negatively about anyone, even those whose actions are abhorrent. Refusing to participate in lambasting a group target usually results in becoming visibly less-accepted within that group.

I don’t really do social media, not out of moral superiority but because I don’t have a large enough network of friends to get value out of it (especially relative to the large perceived cost of giving away heaps of information about myself to untrustworthy megacorps). People usually assume I’m trying to sound better than them when we talk about it, despite my disclaimers that I don’t judge anyone who does use these products.

So, by giving up values that seem unhealthy, and picking up some that seem better, I’m still alienated from the people I wanted to more fully enjoy the presence of in the first place. When I’m by myself, I’m pretty balanced, “riding the waves” as you say. Then the loneliness and hunger for validation set in, and I’m right back to square 1.

I don’t know how to reconcile this.

Re: Mindfulness Meditation Impairs Task Motivation but Not Performance [pdf]

#72

Post by notduncansmith »

zentiggr wrote: post #58
tsenkov wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Many people have romantic notion of transcendence and enlightement, but when meditation starts to really work they realize that's not what they actually want. Change is scary. Interesting. Would you care to share an example of this?

Not directly mindfulness related, but I've been doing EMDR to try to break some self destructive reactions / anxiety. The first major part of processing that got to the core of my panic reactions left me with a 'gaping hole in my brain' where my panic reactions were... I'm still working on what's refilling that void, but I'm not as weirded out as I was those first couple of days. Felt like when something triggery cam…

> Relearning who I want to be is interesting / challenging / confusing.

One thing that adds to the challenge is figuring out how to socialize as your newest self, balancing the new internal constraints with the external ones (some of which you may not have been aware of). What have you learned in that regard?

Re: Mindfulness Meditation Impairs Task Motivation but Not Performance [pdf]

#73

Post by BioMeditate »

user5454 wrote: post #62
eternalban wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contentment is a state of mind.

Still it's easier and more pleasant to maintain that state of mind not sitting inside a cubicle with a boss yelling at you to work harder.

I'm now picturing a boss telling an employee "Contentment is a state of mind" and that we also need to that hundredth "TPS" report done today

Re: Mindfulness Meditation Impairs Task Motivation but Not Performance [pdf]

#74

Post by lopmotr »

alfredallan1 wrote: post #33
bunnymancer wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he was being sarcastic...

Maybe. Maybe not. >Why aren't they generating awesome works of science or philosophy or literature or something with all that clear-headedness Maybe they don’t want to? Maybe their motivation is towards intrinsic goals, while science/literature/etc. are all extrinsic. Just because they aren’t doing X doesn’t naturally and obviously mean it is because they cannot do X. e.g. I can readily be a manager, and have more of…

No doubt they are successful pursuing their intrinsic goals. But the disconnect I saw was between monks who don't work and workers meditating to become more productive. Maybe the meditation is actually the cause of their not working and is harmful for productivity. It might lead you to do as little work as possible, even if you do what you do do really well and feel very personally satisfied.

Re: Mindfulness Meditation Impairs Task Motivation but Not Performance [pdf]

#75

Post by petra »

notduncansmith wrote: post #71
sebosp wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see it like being aware of impulse timings in you, for example, I now and then feel the waves of both happiness and sadness, when they come and leave and I understand it's temporary, I realize the mood it leaves and that it will end and as I'm focusing on the effect of it on the body I don't quite take so much place on happiness/depression, more like observe and let it be. This state of acceptance is strange for me…

This sounds familiar. For a long time, I didn’t know how to internally straddle the line between “acceptance” (as you put it) and nihilism. Now, while I feel I have a grip on it internally, I still struggle to communicate with others in a relatable way. When my opinion is requested, I usually find it most natural to come to the conclusion of “inconclusive”, which people around me find to be evidence of either weak ch…

I resonate with many of the things you, if not completely , at lest in direction i'm heading.

>> Then the loneliness and hunger for validation set in,

I'm thinking about getting a dog. It's suppose to be great for validation and against loneliness, and also, taking care of a dog seems really compatible with the spiritual path - a caring, compassionate relationship - but a silent one.

Re: Mindfulness Meditation Impairs Task Motivation but Not Performance [pdf]

#76

Post by spatular »

tsenkov wrote: post #43
nabla9 wrote: post #40

My experience is that concentration directed meditation is more like a tool. You can use concentrative skills to advance towards direction you want in the life. You are in control. If you do awareness oriented practice long enough, it starts to work on you. You are on the ride 'to the unknown'. Motivations change and unless you make nessesary changes in your life, you lose motivation and have life chrisis. Usual solu…

>Many people have romantic notion of transcendence and enlightement, but when meditation starts to really work they realize that's not what they actually want. Change is scary. Interesting. Would you care to share an example of this?

I'll add that normal people act mostly out of desire to have something or to not have or experience something. After completion of 1st "path" Self is seen to be an illusion, after 2nd path craving and aversion are greatly reduced. Saying that it affects motivation is a bit of understatement, since it completely changes frame of reference.

About people getting unwanted outcome, dissolution of self is known to be unpleasant (aka "Dark Night"), but it's a temporarily unpleasant stage. I've not heard of anyone regretting completing 1-st path after it's done.

Re: Mindfulness Meditation Impairs Task Motivation but Not Performance [pdf]

#77

Post by spatular »

mamon wrote: post #55
spicymaki wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you don't want to detach from the self. The point of mindfulness is to see that concept of an independent, separate self, separate from everything else is an illusion and we are interconnected. You are still you, but part of a bigger system.

What if it's the other way around: what if the feeling of everything being interconnected is an illusion? When Cartesius said his famous "Cogito ergo sum" that's pretty much what it meant - you can be sure that your mind exists, but not much else beyond that. And, if you think about it, why would everything in the world be interconnected in some meaningfull way? For what we know universe is just a big bag of energy a…

That's the point. It's the mind that separates objects out from the global mess, from the single process that unfolds. It's a good thing in a sense that it allows humans to function in the world and create more humans. Downside is that it leads to lots of unnesessary suffering when things change. And they always do, all the time.

Re: Mindfulness Meditation Impairs Task Motivation but Not Performance [pdf]

#78

Post by spatular »

lopmotr wrote: post #14

I used to wonder why Buddhist monks seemed to do so little productive work despite all the productivity their meditation was supposed to bring. Why aren't they generating awesome works of science or philosophy or literature or something with all that clear-headedness? This might explain it.

One thing is that monks usually exist inside religious organizations. Religions are highly traditional, do not concern themselves with western science and are slow changing.

The other thing is the question of what do they think is worth doing. Imagine a person who's been enlightened. He/she may have been miserable, depressed and suicidal in the past, but now has reached state of no suffering and is completely happy. Very likely goal of such a person is to reduce unneeded suffering of others. The most straightforward way is to help others reach enlightment.

Re: Mindfulness Meditation Impairs Task Motivation but Not Performance [pdf]

#79

Post by alfredallan1 »

lopmotr wrote: post #74
alfredallan1 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe. Maybe not. >Why aren't they generating awesome works of science or philosophy or literature or something with all that clear-headedness Maybe they don’t want to? Maybe their motivation is towards intrinsic goals, while science/literature/etc. are all extrinsic. Just because they aren’t doing X doesn’t naturally and obviously mean it is because they cannot do X. e.g. I can readily be a manager, and have more of…

No doubt they are successful pursuing their intrinsic goals. But the disconnect I saw was between monks who don't work and workers meditating to become more productive. Maybe the meditation is actually the cause of their not working and is harmful for productivity. It might lead you to do as little work as possible, even if you do what you do do really well and feel very personally satisfied.

Whose productivity?

The individual’s? If my needs are simple, and easily met by working 2 hours a day, what reason do I have to toil 18 hour days? To enrich someone else? My skills and talents are for me to decide what to do with. What right does someone else have to dictate how much I ought to work?

Re: Mindfulness Meditation Impairs Task Motivation but Not Performance [pdf]

#80

Post by zentiggr »

notduncansmith wrote: post #72
zentiggr wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not directly mindfulness related, but I've been doing EMDR to try to break some self destructive reactions / anxiety. The first major part of processing that got to the core of my panic reactions left me with a 'gaping hole in my brain' where my panic reactions were... I'm still working on what's refilling that void, but I'm not as weirded out as I was those first couple of days. Felt like when something triggery cam…

> Relearning who I want to be is interesting / challenging / confusing. One thing that adds to the challenge is figuring out how to socialize as your newest self, balancing the new internal constraints with the external ones (some of which you may not have been aware of). What have you learned in that regard?

I've definitely gotten more assertively talkative, not as concerned if I say something out of tune or that falls flat.

I've found a reservoir of resentment/anger that is my next focus... and I've been on the verge of random crying breakdowns here and there.

I've been advised that "fake it until you make it" doesn't just apply to startups, and there are lots of times that I put on the "same me" mask while my head spins inside.

I can see myself making some waves amongst family and friends at some point as I change, but I can't see any big issues, just adjustments.

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