Live data from Hacker News

New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

bunniestudios.com

181–190 of 357 posts

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t disagree with most of your analysis. Especially your point about automation. Now imagine a world where the US can make things again at a cost competitive rate due to automation. Ok, now look at how those goods would be taxed overseas... We still would have an export problem due to other country’s protectionist tariffs. The point of the trade negotiations is to get better terms for US exports. This is critical…

The trouble, as bunnie points out in the article, is that the tariffs apply to things like components, not finished assemblies. So why would I locate a SMD assembly line in the US if my raw materials are higher, when I can also assemble the product overseas and avoid these tariffs?

As I stated elsewhere, consider this as a very dynamic moment in time. Things are changing quickly.

I also agree with your analysis of the current situation, I just don’t believe the current situation will be as it is for long.

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#182

Out of all possible trade barriers, I think tariffs are generally the better option. The alternative is subsidies, quotas or "unofficial" barriers like product safety rules or other burry-you-in-bureaucracy setups. Tariffs bring in taxes (as opposed to costing the public) They're easier to understand. This one makes Chinese microwaves x% more expensive. It's clearer who is paying for it (consumers) and who benefits,…

People buying products subject to tariffs (or products made with materials subject to tariffs) pay the majority of the tariff. So they do cost the public. In a functioning market, local suppliers are likely to raise prices in response to the tariffs, as they face less competition.

1.) Americans are now preferring to buy 'made in US'

"U.S. consumers are willing to pay more for “Made in America” goods, according to a recent nationwide survey"

https://morningconsult.com/2017/11/21/poll-support-for-purch...

2.) tariffs encourage reshoring and new robotics/automation factories, which is still net jobs for US. which also makes prices back to where it was before tariffs (maybe even less)

"171,000 JOBS COME HOME TO USA IN 2017" http://yonkerstimes.com/171000-jobs-come-home-to-usa-in-2017...

3.) in a perfectly competitive market, price always goes to equilibrium. which would discount tariffs

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know anything about economy, so this is a question not.. a counter, but: > In a functioning market, local suppliers are likely to raise prices in response to the tariffs, as they face less competition. Is that entirely bad? The whole "US Made!" tagline of old stopped becoming possible because we couldn't charge wages low enough to compete with foreign dollars or foreign slave wages. Raising the cost of X item…

>The whole "US Made!" tagline of old stopped becoming possible because we couldn't charge wages low enough to compete with foreign dollars or foreign slave wages. Not exactly. For starters being able to buy products for cheap is generally good for consumers. They have more money left over to buy other things... Secondly, the U.S. have actively fought to keep wages low in developing nations. For example: https://www.t…

You are right the economy is very complicated, but it seems that the only factor anyone discusses is what's good for the "consumer".

I think the "consumer" is a really bad success criteria. I don't really care about what's good for the "consumer", I care about what's good for "the employee", highly skilled jobs, higher wages, and more jobs. These things can't be driven by lowering the cost to consumers, we'll get what we have now, more money flowing to the 1%, and the middle class being eliminated.

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That will work as soon as we have a single currency. The EU is a really good example here of how a single currency puts everyone on the same economic accounting basis and so eliminates the ability of a country to 'fudge' the numbers through either internal subsidies or currency manipulation. The reason you need a single currency is that if you're going to sell barrels of wheat from country X to country Y, and country…

The inability to devalue currency is why greece cant recover. The Euro is idiotic.

Greece can't recover because its exports are too expensive. Devaluing the currency in which those exports are sold in order to spur exports doesn't solve the underlying problem, which is Greek productivity. Imagine that the German economy is a Prius and the Greek economy is a truck hauling a ton in a trailer behind it, and the Greek truck is complaining that it costs more in fuel than the German Prius to get from the same point A to the same point B. Devaluing the Greek currency is like making fuel cost less especially for the Greek truck with no change in cost for the German Prius; sure, if the fuel is cheap enough for the Greek truck then maybe the Greek truck will be price-competitive in getting you from A to B, but the real solution is "how do we get the Greek truck to first dump the ton it's hauling behind it and then how do we make it more fuel efficient".

In a single-currency market, it is the responsibility of strong players to shore up the economies of weak players, or risk popular discontent in the weaker economy and the democratic dissolution of the common currency. German politicians have paid lip service to this but have not really put German resources to use in building up the PIGS economies because such a policy is unpopular with the German voting public, which wants to see those resources stay in Germany and to the nearsighted benefit of German taxpayers. This is the real root of the Euro crisis. There were always going to be weaker players in the EU, and it doesn't matter if it's Greece, it could very easily have been some other country. The question is what do stronger players do.

The US doesn't suffer from this issue because, to use an oversimplified example, California voters aren't discontent with FEMA funds used in hurricane disaster recovery areas. Californians are Americans before they're Californians, by and large.

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure you understand how nations work. We elect people to work in our best interests. We are in competition with other countries. Our blue collar jobs have stagnated since we’ve been off-shoring manufacturing to China. The poor in the US were getting poorer. Not everyone has the ability to transition into a thinking job and we need a balanced economy for these people.

Not to disagree (or agree), but it seems to me most USians were quite happy to buy cheap Chinese crap at Walmart & Amazon in the last decades, thus off-shoring their own jobs. The chickens are home to roost.

I agree complete with that. I still want to be able to buy cheap stuff from China.

But, and this is a big but, I also want to be able to sell to China’s growing middle and upper class.

That’s what this is about.

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#186

There seems to be a lot of groupthink on HN. Pretty much every comment in this thread that views tariffs remotely positively is being downvoted. I view them slightly negatively, but protectionism (not necessarily tariffs) does help struggling or new industries develop if coupled with good export policies (see China, Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan for examples), so the idea that tariffs have no arguments for them seem…

I think that's mostly because most of the comments feel like either borderline insane (like the ones claiming all regulation including environmental and consumer protection are evil bureaucracy or the one claiming stability is a bad thing for the world) or feel kinda like cheap shills ("Trump is just doing what needs to be done! So brave!").

Yours looks like the first though out one.

EDIT: mostly I think people just think Trump and his regime is so incompetent and also evil, that they will automatically consider everything in a bad light.

Looking at what they done so far, it's not a bad assumption, but maybe this is the one thing they don't fuck up?

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s just hyperbole. The US is throwing its weight around for the first time since Reagan. Last time it worked out pretty well. Things have changed a lot since then with the rise of China and the EU. With the new big players in the world it’s time the US put on its big boy pants and renegotiated its place.

Bush put tariffs on steel in 2002 : 200000 jobs lost [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_United_States_steel_tarif...

Those where meant to be protectionist. We are playing hardball on trade renegotiation. The recently announced tariffs are leverage to get a fair deal at the negotiating table.

There’s a big difference between the two motives.

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Wavepool, Maytag, etc.. Americans washer and dryer cloth machines pushed for Tariff from the Obama administration to fight against Samsung and other. The tariff target machine coming out from specific countries so Samsung and other moved to other South Eastern companies such as Vietnam. So the American companies pushed for tariff for all incoming washing machine that aren't American. Trump administration…

This is completely off topic, but I will never buy another Samsung appliance or anything anymore. Great hardware but shit software...my refrigerator should not need to reboot.

My Samsung TV will start showing bad artifacts like there are compression dropouts on the HDMI. The first time it happened I tried swapping cables and Blu-ray players but it didn't work. Finally I unplugged the TV and plugged it back in, and it's all good. I've had to do it twice more since then.

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#189

I really hate the new tariff. There is no need to be going into a trade war against not only traditionally our rivals but also our allies now too. The economy is recovering and I believe it may now be heading toward a recession. Here's the quick data on job created in raw number without the quality of the job to show that it is recovering since the 2008 recession: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2…

They tariffed our "allies" because our "allies" allow China to setup shell corporations in their countries so China can abuse trade agreements to get around direct tariffs. In return they make billions for being willing to stab the US in the back. We need to do this because China steals 300 billion dollars in IP from American corporations every year, in addition to illegally subsidizing their companies to steal globa…

You got a Citation for Canada and the EU allowing Chinese steel shell companies (the recent tariffs against canada and the EU targeted steel)?

I'd not heard that argument at all so far.

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People buying products subject to tariffs (or products made with materials subject to tariffs) pay the majority of the tariff. So they do cost the public. In a functioning market, local suppliers are likely to raise prices in response to the tariffs, as they face less competition.

1.) Americans are now preferring to buy 'made in US' "U.S. consumers are willing to pay more for “Made in America” goods, according to a recent nationwide survey" https://morningconsult.com/2017/11/21/poll-support-for-purch... 2.) tariffs encourage reshoring and new robotics/automation factories, which is still net jobs for US. which also makes prices back to where it was before tariffs (maybe even less) "171,000 JOB…

1) Forget what people say, look at what they do.
Post reply on HN