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In the Philippines, Dynamite Fishing Decimates Entire Ocean Food Chains

nytimes.com

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Re: In the Philippines, Dynamite Fishing Decimates Entire Ocean Food Chains

#31

Post by tlrobinson »

dotancohen wrote: post #13
lopmotr wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain the causal link between those rich people's greed and this fishing technique? Is it because rich people enabled dynamite to be produced cheaply enough for them?

I'll explain it. Maybe not _those_ 8 rich people, but generally Western nations were made rich by exploiting the tragedy of the commons. Oil and other mining are the classic examples. Why should we expect these poor, poor fishermen to prioritize our poor, poor planet over their poor, poor families when our own rich got that way through exploitation of natural resources and pollution?

I don’t know, so their children and grandchildren will have fish to catch and live off of?

Re: In the Philippines, Dynamite Fishing Decimates Entire Ocean Food Chains

#32

Post by ponzored »

acchow wrote: post #20
nickthemagicman wrote: post #3

In a world where 8 people have more money than the bottom 3 BILLION people combined. You can blame the poor for surviving...or blame the rich for the greed that forces people to do this to survive.

What? This has nothing to do with the rich. This is the tragedy of the commons - other fishers are allowed to use dynamite to fish extremely effectively, so the only way for you to make a living wage is to do the same.

I think its a general cultural disdain for the environment within some cultures.

Most of the world's plastic pollution coming out of 10 Asian and African rivers for example.

This is why arguments from educated, intelligent and responsible Westerners that they themselves shouldn't have children in order to reduce the impact on the planet are flawed.

If not for their children with the same skills and views, who else will reign in the Asians and Africans who are busy destroying their environments?

The first thing that the world needs is for all countries to reach a stable population level. This means hugely reducing fertility in some developing countries, mostly by making sure contraception is widely available and that women are educated enough to know how to use it.

Re: In the Philippines, Dynamite Fishing Decimates Entire Ocean Food Chains

#33

Post by Arnt »

nickthemagicman wrote: post #3

In a world where 8 people have more money than the bottom 3 BILLION people combined. You can blame the poor for surviving...or blame the rich for the greed that forces people to do this to survive.

Are you trying to say that if you buy a fishing boat with money you borrowedfrom Warren Buffett, then dynamiting the fish is understandable, but if you borrow from the ABC Pension Fund it's not?

Re: In the Philippines, Dynamite Fishing Decimates Entire Ocean Food Chains

#34

Post by dang »

lopmotr wrote: post #7
bshepard wrote: post #4

This is a fairly big abstraction, but we live in a world system that's based on discounting unseen externalities; sweeping the hurt under the rug, so to speak. The world-system started with the theft of the American continent and perpetual genocide of the natives, continued with the mass industrialized kidnapping from Africa, and persists today in a cyberpunk, abstracted form that some call "capitalism." There isn't…

The Arab slave trade took more slaves from Africa than the American slave trade. Maybe it's really the Muslims that are the cause of Philippine overfishing? Still doesn't make much sense!

Please don't break the site guidelines by bringing extraneous flamebait into an already divisive thread.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Edit: looks like we've had to warn you about this repeatedly in the past. Eventually we ban accounts that won't stop doing it, so will you please stop?

Re: In the Philippines, Dynamite Fishing Decimates Entire Ocean Food Chains

#35

Post by Peaker »

ponzored wrote: post #32
acchow wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? This has nothing to do with the rich. This is the tragedy of the commons - other fishers are allowed to use dynamite to fish extremely effectively, so the only way for you to make a living wage is to do the same.

I think its a general cultural disdain for the environment within some cultures. Most of the world's plastic pollution coming out of 10 Asian and African rivers for example. This is why arguments from educated, intelligent and responsible Westerners that they themselves shouldn't have children in order to reduce the impact on the planet are flawed. If not for their children with the same skills and views, who else wi…

An average US citizen contributes far more to pollution than the average African or Asian.

Re: In the Philippines, Dynamite Fishing Decimates Entire Ocean Food Chains

#36

Post by dotancohen »

tlrobinson wrote: post #31
dotancohen wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll explain it. Maybe not _those_ 8 rich people, but generally Western nations were made rich by exploiting the tragedy of the commons. Oil and other mining are the classic examples. Why should we expect these poor, poor fishermen to prioritize our poor, poor planet over their poor, poor families when our own rich got that way through exploitation of natural resources and pollution?

I don’t know, so their children and grandchildren will have fish to catch and live off of?

As opposed to eating today? As per the fine article, legal fishing methods net 0-6 KG of fish per day. Explosive fishing nets 15-45 KG of fish per day.

Re: In the Philippines, Dynamite Fishing Decimates Entire Ocean Food Chains

#37

Post by dotancohen »

l5870uoo9y wrote: post #29
rdm_blackhole wrote: post #2

When I think the human race cannot sink any lower, then I am brought back to reality.

Well, at least in the European waters fish are recovering beyond expectation.

Europeans now sail to Somalia to fish. They are doing terrific damage there, and the local human and animal populations there are suffering food shortages as a result.

Re: In the Philippines, Dynamite Fishing Decimates Entire Ocean Food Chains

#38

Post by shams93 »

ponzored wrote: post #32
acchow wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? This has nothing to do with the rich. This is the tragedy of the commons - other fishers are allowed to use dynamite to fish extremely effectively, so the only way for you to make a living wage is to do the same.

I think its a general cultural disdain for the environment within some cultures. Most of the world's plastic pollution coming out of 10 Asian and African rivers for example. This is why arguments from educated, intelligent and responsible Westerners that they themselves shouldn't have children in order to reduce the impact on the planet are flawed. If not for their children with the same skills and views, who else wi…

The Philippines are catholic so birth control might actually be illegal, if the Catholic Church is concerned about the environment they need to promote birth control not present it as a cardinal sin. Countries like this the pope holds a heck of a lot of sway. He talks a good game about global warming but here is where the rubber meets the road. For the sake of the common good they need to shift the focus of sin from sex to wrecking the environment and causing overpopulation.

Re: In the Philippines, Dynamite Fishing Decimates Entire Ocean Food Chains

#39

Post by ptaipale »

lopmotr wrote: post #15
dotancohen wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll explain it. Maybe not _those_ 8 rich people, but generally Western nations were made rich by exploiting the tragedy of the commons. Oil and other mining are the classic examples. Why should we expect these poor, poor fishermen to prioritize our poor, poor planet over their poor, poor families when our own rich got that way through exploitation of natural resources and pollution?

Wasn't every nation? Europe and China have lost almost all their forests. Pre-European New Zealand natives exterminated the giant flightless moa. There was a powerful ancient African civilization that died out because they used up all the artesian water. I'd say nobody cared about conservation until rich people we comfortable enough to stop worrying about their next meal and look at broader issues.

BTW, elsewhere I just read that the amount of forests in England has now recovered above the levels recorded in Domesday Book (William Conqueror's land survey in 1086).

Same's happening in many countries in Europe. I have a picture of my birth home, taken in 1903 from a nearby hill. The landscape is mostly bare, almost everything except the actual fields is used for cattle. Now you can't take a picture like that. Almost everything is covered by a forest, but you can't see it from the trees growing on the hill.

Re: In the Philippines, Dynamite Fishing Decimates Entire Ocean Food Chains

#40

Post by Pica_soO »

dotancohen wrote: post #37
l5870uoo9y wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, at least in the European waters fish are recovering beyond expectation.

Europeans now sail to Somalia to fish. They are doing terrific damage there, and the local human and animal populations there are suffering food shortages as a result.

Somalis dont eat fish. So yes, here it is a tradition that prefers starvation to using "poor mans" food.

https://www.somalispot.com/threads/why-do-somalis-hate-fish-...

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