I take it David Attenborough didn’t cover this in Blue Earth II?
In the Philippines, Dynamite Fishing Decimates Entire Ocean Food Chains
11–20 of 101 posts
Re: In the Philippines, Dynamite Fishing Decimates Entire Ocean Food Chains
#12In a world where 8 people have more money than the bottom 3 BILLION people combined. You can blame the poor for surviving...or blame the rich for the greed that forces people to do this to survive.
Can you explain the causal link between those rich people's greed and this fishing technique? Is it because rich people enabled dynamite to be produced cheaply enough for them?
It's because "richness" creates a pathologically competitive social system that encourages this sort of destruction activity in order to get the token that conveys value.
Re: In the Philippines, Dynamite Fishing Decimates Entire Ocean Food Chains
#13In a world where 8 people have more money than the bottom 3 BILLION people combined. You can blame the poor for surviving...or blame the rich for the greed that forces people to do this to survive.
Can you explain the causal link between those rich people's greed and this fishing technique? Is it because rich people enabled dynamite to be produced cheaply enough for them?
I'll explain it.
Maybe not _those_ 8 rich people, but generally Western nations were made rich by exploiting the tragedy of the commons. Oil and other mining are the classic examples.
Why should we expect these poor, poor fishermen to prioritize our poor, poor planet over their poor, poor families when our own rich got that way through exploitation of natural resources and pollution?
Re: In the Philippines, Dynamite Fishing Decimates Entire Ocean Food Chains
#14Earlier quoted context omitted.
The Arab slave trade took more slaves from Africa than the American slave trade. Maybe it's really the Muslims that are the cause of Philippine overfishing? Still doesn't make much sense!
Every single history I've read about slavery indicates that the middle passage was orders of magnitude larger and more intense than pre-modern slave systems. To the first comment: our world is changing. We are leaving the world system that was created around 1500. That said, we're still inside of it, and so social practices as manifestly illogical and inane as concentration camps ("prisons"), national borders, and th…
Most of them didn't go to America but it looks like the order of magnitude was about the same for both ~10's of millions. The Arabs castrated their male slaves so they didn't leave a black population for us to notice like America and Sth America have.
Re: In the Philippines, Dynamite Fishing Decimates Entire Ocean Food Chains
#15Earlier quoted context omitted.
Can you explain the causal link between those rich people's greed and this fishing technique? Is it because rich people enabled dynamite to be produced cheaply enough for them?
I'll explain it. Maybe not _those_ 8 rich people, but generally Western nations were made rich by exploiting the tragedy of the commons. Oil and other mining are the classic examples. Why should we expect these poor, poor fishermen to prioritize our poor, poor planet over their poor, poor families when our own rich got that way through exploitation of natural resources and pollution?
Wasn't every nation? Europe and China have lost almost all their forests. Pre-European New Zealand natives exterminated the giant flightless moa. There was a powerful ancient African civilization that died out because they used up all the artesian water. I'd say nobody cared about conservation until rich people we comfortable enough to stop worrying about their next meal and look at broader issues.
Re: In the Philippines, Dynamite Fishing Decimates Entire Ocean Food Chains
#16In a world where 8 people have more money than the bottom 3 BILLION people combined. You can blame the poor for surviving...or blame the rich for the greed that forces people to do this to survive.
Many rich people are rich because they employ people and profit from it. Many rich people are rich because they own real wealth and not (just) money. Rich people are not the problem. Rich people are no excuse for doing bad things.
Poverty is no excuse for doing bad things.
Deficient morality leads to bad actions and bad constraints.
Change requires change. Understanding who and what to blame is an improvement. Becoming vegan is an improvement. Voting for better politicians is an improvement.
Re: In the Philippines, Dynamite Fishing Decimates Entire Ocean Food Chains
#17Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'll explain it. Maybe not _those_ 8 rich people, but generally Western nations were made rich by exploiting the tragedy of the commons. Oil and other mining are the classic examples. Why should we expect these poor, poor fishermen to prioritize our poor, poor planet over their poor, poor families when our own rich got that way through exploitation of natural resources and pollution?
Wasn't every nation? Europe and China have lost almost all their forests. Pre-European New Zealand natives exterminated the giant flightless moa. There was a powerful ancient African civilization that died out because they used up all the artesian water. I'd say nobody cared about conservation until rich people we comfortable enough to stop worrying about their next meal and look at broader issues.
I don't understand why you are being downvoted. You're 100% right.
I specifically mention the West because it is the West (the EU) who are pressuring the Philippines to better regulate their fishing industry, as per the fine article, and also because it is the West who are now comfortable enough to worry about the tragedy of the commons since they are done exploiting it.
Re: In the Philippines, Dynamite Fishing Decimates Entire Ocean Food Chains
#18In a world where 8 people have more money than the bottom 3 BILLION people combined. You can blame the poor for surviving...or blame the rich for the greed that forces people to do this to survive.
Many rich people are rich because they employ people and profit from it. Many rich people are rich because they own real wealth and not (just) money. Rich people are not the problem. Rich people are no excuse for doing bad things. Poverty is no excuse for doing bad things. Deficient morality leads to bad actions and bad constraints. Change requires change. Understanding who and what to blame is an improvement. Becomi…
So true, yet we largely agree that the broadest shoulders should beat the largest load... ie. progressive taxes.
We should do more of that to fight poverty, as that will hopefully mitigate things like this.
Re: In the Philippines, Dynamite Fishing Decimates Entire Ocean Food Chains
#19Earlier quoted context omitted.
Many rich people are rich because they employ people and profit from it. Many rich people are rich because they own real wealth and not (just) money. Rich people are not the problem. Rich people are no excuse for doing bad things. Poverty is no excuse for doing bad things. Deficient morality leads to bad actions and bad constraints. Change requires change. Understanding who and what to blame is an improvement. Becomi…
So true, yet we largely agree that the broadest shoulders should beat the largest load... ie. progressive taxes. We should do more of that to fight poverty, as that will hopefully mitigate things like this.
Thanks. I agree that we should have the morality to defend Human Rights and to not tolerate poverty.
Unfortunately no state in the world respects the Human Rights for its citizens.
http://www.un.org/en/sections/issues-depth/human-rights/
IMO not progressive taxes but progressive economics and progressive politics should be implemented.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2X_Ywepzm46_uGJDfRjYeQ/vid...
IMO in a perfect world, there would be no tax and no debt but a moral government that distributes money as needed to private persons and not to banks by the central bank and by bailout programs.
E.g. https://www.forbes.com/sites/traceygreenstein/2011/09/20/the...
Re: In the Philippines, Dynamite Fishing Decimates Entire Ocean Food Chains
#20In a world where 8 people have more money than the bottom 3 BILLION people combined. You can blame the poor for surviving...or blame the rich for the greed that forces people to do this to survive.
What? This has nothing to do with the rich. This is the tragedy of the commons - other fishers are allowed to use dynamite to fish extremely effectively, so the only way for you to make a living wage is to do the same.