Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans • Hacker News Board

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#221

Post by tptacek » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 11:14 PM UTC

bruthafez wrote: post #219

dwaltrip wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, good catch. I missed the height one. However, I think it's not even close in terms of magnitude. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember hearing something like that tall individuals earn, on average, something like $1000 more per year. That's pretty small compared to differences in the usual groups that people tend to focus on.

What differences? Just saying that height, facial attractiveness/symmetry, weight etc all could (unquantifiably but obviously) easily outweigh race in terms of societal privilege and it's just absurd to cherry pick the issue of race as the determining factor of privilege rather than something even more basic such as height or facial symmetry. And that's not even accounting for the fact that (according to many academi…

That is a ridiculous over-reading of the notion --- not well supported in mainstream science --- that "race doesn't exist". Scientists who make that claim aren't suggesting that it's therefore impossible for someone to be discriminated against based on race. That would be a self-evidently ludicrous proposition, given observable reality.

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#222

Post by bruthafez » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 11:23 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #221

bruthafez wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What differences? Just saying that height, facial attractiveness/symmetry, weight etc all could (unquantifiably but obviously) easily outweigh race in terms of societal privilege and it's just absurd to cherry pick the issue of race as the determining factor of privilege rather than something even more basic such as height or facial symmetry. And that's not even accounting for the fact that (according to many academi…

That is a ridiculous over-reading of the notion --- not well supported in mainstream science --- that "race doesn't exist". Scientists who make that claim aren't suggesting that it's therefore impossible for someone to be discriminated against based on race. That would be a self-evidently ludicrous proposition, given observable reality.

I never said it was impossible to be discriminated against based on race. Obviously it is. And obviously race exists. I was pointing out the absurdity of colleges factoring race into admissions while simultaneously employing professors who claim race doesn't exist. If it doesn't exist then how can you justify factoring it into admissions? You can't -- because it exists.

TLDR I agree w u dude.

EDIT: HN won't let me reply to ur reply so let me say -- no my argument is very coherent. If you want to say that "it's not settled if race exists or not" then I agree. And I agree with your assertion that discrimination based on perceived racial characteristics is also obviously possible. I also never said that ppl who argue that race is only a social construct also are arguing that racism doesn't even exist, I don't even know where you got that from tbqh dude. This comment thread is weird to me because you're disagreeing with a ton of things I didn't even say and that I disagree with as well. I don't know why you're so hell-bent on disagreeing with straw man arguments you project onto me because all your points are solid bro and I agree with them all, except for your nonsensical assertion that I don't agree with u. Uhhh trust me bro, yes I do lmao. :)

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#223

Post by bruthafez » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 11:25 PM UTC

pkaye wrote: post #220

bruthafez wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it's better but still so gameable it's essentially unusable. Also if you factor in assets reported to the IRS it would be damn near impossible not to be biased towards kids whose families have more assets and thus higher chances of contributing to your university's endowment via donations.

I guess it depends what the priorities are. Are they trying to increase the university endowment, increase diversity, teach bright students, run a winning college sports team, etc.

I Dunno dude we were talking about fairness in admissions and now you're talking about the goals of colleges. I agree different colleges have different goals. I'm just saying that taking finances into consideration is so gameable that it shouldn't be a factor in a fair admissions process.

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#224

Post by tptacek » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 11:25 PM UTC

bruthafez wrote: post #222

tptacek wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a ridiculous over-reading of the notion --- not well supported in mainstream science --- that "race doesn't exist". Scientists who make that claim aren't suggesting that it's therefore impossible for someone to be discriminated against based on race. That would be a self-evidently ludicrous proposition, given observable reality.

I never said it was impossible to be discriminated against based on race. Obviously it is. And obviously race exists. I was pointing out the absurdity of colleges factoring race into admissions while simultaneously employing professors who claim race doesn't exist. If it doesn't exist then how can you justify factoring it into admissions? You can't -- because it exists. TLDR I agree w u dude. EDIT: HN won't let me re…

No, you don't. Your argument is incoherent. It's not settled that race "exists" or what it means. People arguing that race isn't meaningful, or meaningful only as a social construct, aren't saying that there's no such thing as racial discrimination, nor can their arguments be reduced to such a claim.

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#225

Post by fraudsyndrome » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 11:46 PM UTC

eganist wrote: post #57

fraudsyndrome wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do but it goes deeper as people tend to stereotype Asians as being privileged as if they are a monolithic group, yet you have those (mainly from South East Asia) coming from low socio-economic backgrounds being lumped in as privileged. People tend to forget that minorities being born directly into a disadvantage include Asians/Asian-Americans.

You're entirely right. The anti-Asian bias would probably (as suggested by the article) also impact populations with the same socioeconomic detriments, examples of whom can be seen among Vietnam War refugees and subsequent South-East Asian asylum-seekers/immigrants more generally, as you suggested. So by penalizing the whole band of Asian races to even out admission, a whole bunch of materially disadvantaged Asian po…

Actually, I forgot to add that it can be bad as a whole for Chinese people too if they're stereotyped as rich. There are plenty going overseas to study who are pretty much in poverty too or even those born here with a Chinese background that are poor.

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#226

Post by siosonel » Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 12:22 AM UTC

bruthafez wrote: post #213

siosonel wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am an Asian. I am against systematic denial of anyone. I say let anyone attend the school of their choice, using online access to overcome space constraints. As an Asian who've experienced discrimination first hand, I am saddened that necessary differences in the gravity of error correction, as applied to group discrimination, is not obvious to everyone. Correcting the effects of slavery is much more important beca…

>Correcting the effects of slavery is much more important because its effects are much more pervasive. Uh, source? You're just making an arbitrary value judgement. Who are you to compare the effects of racism-against-blacks against the effects of racism-against-asians? You're making an arbitrary value judgement and then using that value judgement to justify systematic discriminations against Asians. You're also ignor…

And someone who insists on absolute racial blindness is not making a value judgement? Isn't the issue mostly about which group to feel sorry for, why, and how? And you want a literary or published source for that empathy? Or are you saying that it is not self evident that a group, one that has been enslaved for hundreds of years, is not disproportionately poorer, grow up in single-parent households, or experience incarceration? Is that pattern even possible without a history of systematic, long-term oppression?

The way I see it, one group is arguing from a place of historical hardship, and the other is arguing from a place of privilege. I don't mean someone growing up poor in Appalachia as being privileged simply because s/he is white; to me, that historical background definitely counts towards raising diversity. I'm just trying to put myself in other people's shoes. It's not necessarily about race or ethnicity or recentness of oppression, it's the compounded interest of those oppressions and inability to rise out of that enforced debt. Our institutions have to factor that historical indebtedness.

Unless you really put yourself in another person's shoes, I honestly don't think this discussion will go anywhere. I mean, imagine growing up poor in a single household family, going to lowly ranked high schools, being disproportionately more likely to be stopped over and imprisoned for minor offenses, and getting questioned about academic abilities constantly.

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#227

Post by bedhead » Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 12:27 AM UTC

IvyAdmisions wrote: post #209

sizzle wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what's the solution to the problem of not enough seats for x ethnicity when filtering out academic performance metrics?

Lawsuits like this, I'd imagine. Also, waaaaaay more asians need to be running for Congress. It's getting better but they're still underrepresented slightly (4.8% of reps are asian while 5.6% of americans are).

Asians evidently are too smart to want to get involved in politics. Gotta respect that. (not joking)

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#228

Post by siosonel » Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 12:45 AM UTC

bedhead wrote: post #227

IvyAdmisions wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lawsuits like this, I'd imagine. Also, waaaaaay more asians need to be running for Congress. It's getting better but they're still underrepresented slightly (4.8% of reps are asian while 5.6% of americans are).

Asians evidently are too smart to want to get involved in politics. Gotta respect that. (not joking)

This reply demonstrates the problem that an admission process is trying to address. The reply makes it seem like Ivy league admission is like a game to master for some students. Whereas graduates of top schools like Harvard are generally expected to become leaders who care about bigger issues, to have been informed by historical patterns and long term trends. These future leaders must know how to emphatize and care about much more than just getting ahead. (I'm an Asian, btw, if that helps inform the reader of where I'm coming from.)

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#229

Post by bedhead » Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 12:55 AM UTC

siosonel wrote: post #228

bedhead wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Asians evidently are too smart to want to get involved in politics. Gotta respect that. (not joking)

This reply demonstrates the problem that an admission process is trying to address. The reply makes it seem like Ivy league admission is like a game to master for some students. Whereas graduates of top schools like Harvard are generally expected to become leaders who care about bigger issues, to have been informed by historical patterns and long term trends. These future leaders must know how to emphatize and care a…

It was a comment about the quality of people that go into politics, nothing more. There is little incentive for smart, ambitious people to enter anymore.

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#230

Post by bedhead » Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 12:58 AM UTC

IvyAdmisions wrote: post #214

MR4D wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace the name, ethnicity, and gender of the person with a number. If admissions can never see that information they are much less likely to be able to discriminate against it. Of course, if someone doesn't like the result, and not enough black/asian/jewish/white/whatever kids get in, then someone sues. But to me, this is the only way of making it on the merits. As soon as you introduce that information into the pr…

The asians will still get rejected. They're not rejected for racial reasons. They're rejected because they submit uninspiring, cookie cutter applications en masse. This may be because of something in the asian culture. That's outside my expertise.

There is a natural follow-up question: why might other races get rejected at high rates, albeit not for racial reasons (similar to your point)? I think there are questions that many people simply don't want the answers to.