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Macedonia changes name, ending bitter dispute with Greece

theguardian.com

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Re: Macedonia changes name, ending bitter dispute with Greece

#111

Post by PhasmaFelis »

newfoundglory wrote: post #84
Foivos wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would it mean for Portugal if Spain decided to change its name to Iberia? This is exactly what is happening here. They want to be named after a geographical region which is way bigger than their borders.

Yea, it's as silly as a country claiming to be the "United States of America" when lol, Canada and Mexico and all of South America would like a word...

I eventually figured out that this is largely an issue with terminology.

In Central/South America, it's generally taught that everything from Nunavut to Cape Horn is a single continent, America. When the US calls itself "America," that's seen as a deliberate attempt to claim primacy over the whole continent.

In English-speaking North America, it's generally taught that "America" is the country and "North America/South America" are the continents, so we're befuddled by the irritation.

This is why Canada, actually, doesn't appear to have an issue with the "America" thing.

Re: Macedonia changes name, ending bitter dispute with Greece

#112

Post by v_lisivka »

newfoundglory wrote: post #88
v_lisivka wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both Greece and Macedonia are national countries, so in this case will of the people == will of the nationalists.

Greece probably shouldn't have elected an anti-nationalist governing party then.

Some nations have home: their own country, so in these cases people == nation, and will of the people == will of the nation.

Re: Macedonia changes name, ending bitter dispute with Greece

#113

Post by DC-3 »

Foivos wrote: post #77
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #54

I continue to regard this as the stupidest geopolitical dispute our reality can safely support.

What would it mean for Portugal if Spain decided to change its name to Iberia? This is exactly what is happening here. They want to be named after a geographical region which is way bigger than their borders.

It's even worse than that - it's like Portugal changing its name to Iberia. The vast majority of historical 'Macedonia' is in Greece.

Re: Macedonia changes name, ending bitter dispute with Greece

#114

Post by romwell »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #111
newfoundglory wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, it's as silly as a country claiming to be the "United States of America" when lol, Canada and Mexico and all of South America would like a word...

I eventually figured out that this is largely an issue with terminology. In Central/South America, it's generally taught that everything from Nunavut to Cape Horn is a single continent, America. When the US calls itself "America," that's seen as a deliberate attempt to claim primacy over the whole continent. In English-speaking North America, it's generally taught that "America" is the country and "North America/Sout…

>in English-speaking North America, it's generally taught that "America" is the country and "North America/South America" are the continents

aaaaaand you don't see any problem here, no?

Let's try again. With that logic, there'd be no problem with Germany calling itself "Europe":

"What's the problem? When we say 'Europe', we mean our home country, a large part of the region known as 'Western Europe', and disjoint from 'Eastern Europe' - everybody here is befuddled by why the Greeks are upset! The Austrians are totally on board with it, by the way."

Re: Macedonia changes name, ending bitter dispute with Greece

#115

Post by _dps »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #54

I continue to regard this as the stupidest geopolitical dispute our reality can safely support.

I'm treading lightly here because this is a sensitive subject, and I am somewhat personally involved [0]. But the discussion here is missing important history that shapes this problem that others casually dismiss as "silly". Please, educate yourselves on the history of this area before making flippant comments.

You can't understand this problem without understanding the Greek Civil War and former Yugoslavia post WW2. The facts are disputed so rather than try to play historian on a subject on which I am biased, I encourage you to read the wikipedia page [1], and especially look for information regarding Slavic Macedonians, separatist groups that wanted to take Greece behind the Iron Curtain, and the claims made to a large chunk of territory within Greece by the separatists and by Greek communists specifically around the region we call Macedonia. Keep in mind that our current government openly calls itself the Radical Left Coalition.

Reach your own conclusions about whether Greeks should consider this a silly matter.

[0] My grandparents fought in the civil war against the separatists

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Civil_War

Re: Macedonia changes name, ending bitter dispute with Greece

#116

Post by brazzledazzle »

grzm wrote: post #109
refoundglory wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(logged out, discovered last pass doesn't have the password for hn: new account to continue) I think you skipped over the comment that I was responding to, which said this: > They want to be named after a geographical region which is way bigger than their borders. Sounds exactly like the USA at the time of their founding, and is in no way describable as "the opposite".

If you have an email address associated with an account, you can reset your password.

I say stick with “refoundglory”. It’s the better out of the two. And more creative.

Re: Macedonia changes name, ending bitter dispute with Greece

#117

Post by eftychis »

newfoundglory wrote: post #84
Foivos wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would it mean for Portugal if Spain decided to change its name to Iberia? This is exactly what is happening here. They want to be named after a geographical region which is way bigger than their borders.

Yea, it's as silly as a country claiming to be the "United States of America" when lol, Canada and Mexico and all of South America would like a word...

However, United States of America does not claim in this situation historical figures of Canada, Mexico and rest of South America to be U.S.A. nationals, or publish maps with its aspired borders including Quebec or Mexico City. For instance, they claimed that Simon Bolivar was U.S. national.

The situation is way more complicated than people expect or are comfortable with. I am not objective in this situation to give you a full analysis, but I would suggest if you want to have a full picture to start by looking at Balkan Wars to get an idea about the imperialistic dreams of each country in the area and the events. WWI shows how things evolved afterwards. Just checking the alliances is enough.

Then read about WWII specifically in that area and about Josip Broz Tito [0] (for starters) and dig in why he introduced new history and an identity and what were the political aspirations after WWII and why Yugoslavia was created and the naming of its regions.

I tried to give an objective guide to read the situation. Again personally I am perhaps not objective, as I have a stake in the situation.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josip_Broz_Tito

Re: Macedonia changes name, ending bitter dispute with Greece

#118

Post by eftychis »

Sangermaine wrote: post #104
newfoundglory wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I don't see how you think it's opposite. Macedonia is a name for a large area. FYROM/Northern Macedonia is being used to name a country that takes up only part of this area. Similarly, the Americas are two continents, and USA is being used to name a country that takes up only part of this area. Neither the USA nor FYROM are granted any claim to the rest of their nominal superset.

>No, I don't see how you think it's opposite. Because you're misunderstanding the issue at hand. Greece and Macedonia aren't having an abstract argument over sets. As the article explains, Greece has two specific objections to its neighbor using the name Macedonia: that the name (and certain actions) are thinly-disguised territorial claims against its own province of Macedonia, and are an attempt to lay lay claim to…

To enrich:

FYROM (UN designated name) and to be Severna Makedonija has been actively teaching they are the descendants of Alexander the Great, raised statues [0](random article googled, you can find more) etc. Extremist groups also post maps [1] (also random googling you can find more). So I would say the claims are disguised only in talks with other country officials.

Don't take this dispute lightly; recall that country policies trying to force the dispute to end created the whole Middle East mess and the Balkan's has been a hotpot with the last war happening in the 90's (also because they forced together two different people (I am skimming on the subject please read into Yugoslavia)).

[0]https://www.pri.org/stories/2011-06-24/macedonia-gets-statue... [1] https://www.thenationalherald.com/172171/fyrom-map-claims-gr...

Re: Macedonia changes name, ending bitter dispute with Greece

#119

Post by eftychis »

jcranmer wrote: post #100
SilasX wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did it cause issues for Germany to call themselves the “Holy Roman Empire [of the German Nation]” for a thousand years? (Honest question.)

Or the Byzantine Empire, who only ever referred to themselves as the Roman Empire.

Actually, the naming there was not incorrect. Recall the Roman empire split into East and West, with West disappearing shortly after. So it was the only remaining (piece) of the Roman empire at that point and there was later an attempt to liberate Rome etc (see Justinian for the most serious one).

The Holy Roman empire was an attempt of Charles I (to be named Charlemagne, i.e. the great) to recreate such an empire.

Re: Macedonia changes name, ending bitter dispute with Greece

#120

Post by eftychis »

jcranmer wrote: post #68
shapiro92 wrote: post #57

I personally do not care about the naming. Name each place / country whatever you want. What I care about is the political games that are being played behind it. People in this thread miss one point about FYROM, they want to use the name Makedonia with relations to the ancient Makedonas. Which in turns creates issues with the Greek nation. Now with the new "deal" they will take the name North Macedonia but they stric…

> Now with the new "deal" they will take the name North Macedonia but they strictly mention that they do not have any relation to the Ancient Makedonas. So at the end of the day, why didnt the two goverment or EU or UN take 20 historians and ask them, "guys do they bare the right to have that name?" Whatever the historians say should be the verdict. The name Macedonia expanded to cover the modern country of Macedonia…

The consensus of historians is clear. They ignore them because they don't like to side with any single country. Think of it more like politicians ignoring consensus about Global Warming (e.g. Trump as an obvious example) or financial issues.

Politicians do not care about what is right, or what the scientific community thinks. They want to make things easier for them.

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