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Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

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Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#181

Post by pps43 »

balabaster wrote: post #145
beenBoutIT wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could be taught in preschools along with simple things like basic gun safety, swimming pool safety, and how to avoid perverts. Unfortunately all of these things are educational luxuries for the rare kid with parents that take the time to teach them to their kids. It seems like intelligent people could put together a laundry list of simple, easy-to-teach things along these lines that could be taught in schools for…

Taught in preschools... like basic gun safety :D Why does this seem like it should be wrong? XD I'm now imagining 5 year olds field stripping, cleaning and re-assembling semi-automatic rifles like miniature Marine snipers, hahahaha.

Depends on the location. In Japan it's a waste of time and resources, in US it can save lives.

I was field stripping and re-assembling AKM in school (just like everyone else in the class), on the clock, under watchful eye of a real war veteran. And shooting .22 rifles in school's basement. Not a big deal. Admittedly we were older than 5 years, but not by much.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#182

Post by mikeash »

lisper wrote: post #175
dwild wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What scare you? That by calling 911 you allow them to see and hear what you do? It's easy to extrapolate and use the "slippery slope" argument but that doesn't make sense here. It's an emergency, you are calling an emergency line. That line should have priority access to information while you are calling for help. Don't want any of that?... Well I guess don't call the emergency line... or whatever...

How can I be sure that the underlying mechanism doesn't have a back door that allows anyone with access to track me all the time? Your argument is very similar to the argument advanced by the government for key escrow and other backdoors in encryption systems: this mechanism will only be used with proper legal safeguards to catch "bad guys". Don't you want that? No, I don't. I really don't.

How can you be sure your phone doesn’t have such a back door *now?

I don’t understand why you’d be ok with a cell phone as it stands today, but think that a cell phone which can send a bunch of data when you send 911 is completely unacceptable.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#183

Post by avip »

gregsadetsky wrote: post #93

This is an extraordinarily important and interesting “space” ripe for innovation. A few weeks ago, I was awarded one of the highest civilian public awards from the Commandant of the US Coast Guard in DC for my volunteer web mapping work during Harvey. That work helped coordinate 700 helicopter sorties and save 1700 lives. I’ve been thinking — and talking with Emergency Responders — about what an up to date 911 would…

Learn about how not to implement it by downloading this "My MDA" app https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=il.org.mda.mym... (careful Hebrew there, but app UI is in English)

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#184

Post by craftyguy »

jonknee wrote: post #142
craftyguy wrote: post #3

> The approach developed by Apple and RapidSOS sends location data from an iPhone to a "clearinghouse" accessible to emergency calling centers. Only the 911 calling centers will be able to see the data during the call, and none of it can be used for non-emergency purposes, according to Apple. How long until this information is available to law enforcement?

> How long until this information is available to law enforcement? Well in this case that's entirely the point, people are calling law enforcement. But if you were concerned that someone could just pull up your location at any time, their system only gets your location data when you call 911: https://info.rapidsos.com/blog/bringing-apple-device-locatio... > When this feature is made available later this year in an iO…

> people are calling law enforcement.

Not always. Sometimes it's a medical emergency, or a fire. Law enforcement's access to precise location information should be limited to strictly only emergency scenarios that require their involvement. Any other use should be protected behind a warrant, but it's not clear that this is the case. This is a big shiny object for them that would 'help' in a wide variety of non-emergency situations, so expect abuse.

> law enforcement can already look up where your phone is based on tower triangulation

Tower triangulation is not very accurate. This technology is about being able to locate someone within a handful of meters, not within a a few hundred km^2. It's orders of magnitude more powerful than the current technology they have.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#185

Post by bilbo0s »

himom wrote: post #140
reaperducer wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly, this is not unique to Oakland. Several of the cities I've lived in have been plagued with 911 hold times of 10-20 minutes or more. In one city, the mayor threatened to put a checklist on the ballot so people could decide which types of emergencies would be responded to, and the top vote-getters would be funded. In another, a city council member publicly told his constituents "the police are not here to protect…

Ouch. Sounds like a failed state scenario: anarchy by services disappearing and unconcern for community. When a government ceases to provide a fundamental function, such as protecting its citizens, it risks irrelevancy... and citizens better form their own government to replace the one not doing its job, or they’re inviting criminal thugs reminiscent of ISIS to fill the power-vacuum.

Problem is, the "...people ... form[ing] their own government to replace the one not doing its job..." usually ARE the ISIS-like thugs.

This is one of the great aporias of civic discord.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#186

Post by macintux »

dwild wrote: post #173
lisper wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine! I am, and it scares the hell out of me. If I have to choose between having emergency responders possibly not being able to locate me, and having the government be able to track my every move along with everyone else's, it's not even a hard choice: I'll take the former as by far the lesser of the two evils. Being able to reliably hide my location is every bit as important to personal freedom as being able t…

What scare you? That by calling 911 you allow them to see and hear what you do? It's easy to extrapolate and use the "slippery slope" argument but that doesn't make sense here. It's an emergency, you are calling an emergency line. That line should have priority access to information while you are calling for help. Don't want any of that?... Well I guess don't call the emergency line... or whatever...

There are valid reasons to call the emergency line when you are not the one experiencing the emergency, and thus you don't wish your privacy to be compromised.

I'm reminded a bit of the sanctuary city debate. Sanctuary cities are doing their best to let anyone call for help without worrying about whether immigration will be the first responders.

Anyway, I think there's some excessive paranoia in this discussion, but there is nonetheless a kernel of a valid point.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#187

Post by 21 »

dingaling wrote: post #178
dbcooperlives wrote: post #106

I have been deploying e911 call taking systems for more than 10 years. All the areas that I service have been getting pretty accurate location data on mobile callers since I started. Initially, the providers send the location of the tower they are on and the triangulation data with the call. A couple of seconds later they will send more accurate GPS coordinates for most calls, which are usually pretty good. Sometimes…

> A couple of seconds later they will send more accurate GPS coordinates for most calls I wish my day-to-day GPS initialised and obtained an initial fix that quickly. Usually it needs at least five minutes, sometimes over an hour. From an earlier job I vaguely remember that a NavStar cold-fix requires two or three minutes at a minimum with optimal conditions.

Maybe you just need a new phone/device? With each new phone I had faster and faster GPS lock time.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#188

Post by lisper »

mikeash wrote: post #182
lisper wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can I be sure that the underlying mechanism doesn't have a back door that allows anyone with access to track me all the time? Your argument is very similar to the argument advanced by the government for key escrow and other backdoors in encryption systems: this mechanism will only be used with proper legal safeguards to catch "bad guys". Don't you want that? No, I don't. I really don't.

How can you be sure your phone doesn’t have such a back door *now? I don’t understand why you’d be ok with a cell phone as it stands today, but think that a cell phone which can send a bunch of data when you send 911 is completely unacceptable.

> How can you be sure your phone doesn’t have such a back door *now?

I can't.

> I don’t understand why you’d be ok with a cell phone as it stands today, but think that a cell phone which can send a bunch of data when you send 911 is completely unacceptable.

I didn't say that it's completely unacceptable. What I said was that talking about expanding this kind of data sharing is if there were a consensus that only good things could result scares me.

The reason I'm OK with my cell phone today is that the default assumption today is that my location is private, or at least under my control. There could be a back door, but that is a risk I'm willing to take.

What scares me is that we seem to be oozing slowly towards bringing up a whole generation who have never known privacy, and so have no idea what its value is.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#189

Post by jonknee »

craftyguy wrote: post #184
jonknee wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How long until this information is available to law enforcement? Well in this case that's entirely the point, people are calling law enforcement. But if you were concerned that someone could just pull up your location at any time, their system only gets your location data when you call 911: https://info.rapidsos.com/blog/bringing-apple-device-locatio... > When this feature is made available later this year in an iO…

> people are calling law enforcement. Not always. Sometimes it's a medical emergency, or a fire. Law enforcement's access to precise location information should be limited to strictly only emergency scenarios that require their involvement. Any other use should be protected behind a warrant, but it's not clear that this is the case. This is a big shiny object for them that would 'help' in a wide variety of non-emerge…

> This is a big shiny object for them that would 'help' in a wide variety of non-emergency situations, so expect abuse.

Did you miss the part where I linked to and quoted that this data is only sent from your phone to the database when you call 911? In non-emergency situations no one will be able to search this database for your location because your location is not in the database.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#190

Post by lisper »

gregsadetsky wrote: post #180
lisper wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s only about sending your location when you specifically ask for help in an emergency situation. No, it's not. Go back and re-read the comment I was responding to. Pay particular attention to the following passages: > Consider how much real-time location info — and live HD video streams — can 1 mobile phone produce, and how close to none of that is available in an emergency situation. > Consider how 911 is but o…

The GP is me. :) I apologize if my original comment was not clear, or could leave itself open to a different interpretation. I really did mean that when someone in an emergency situation needs help, presently, they do not have the ability to send their location, a text message, an image or a video. That’s it — I was only referring to emergency situations, and anything that I am discussing would be user-initiated.

> The GP is me. :)

Oh, sorry, I didn't see that. (This thread has grown a lot of tentacles.)

> I was only referring to emergency situations

That was very unclear. When you wrote:

> Consider how 911 is but one service

that sure sounded to me like you were advocating making this information available very broadly.

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