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Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

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Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#171

Post by gregsadetsky »

nashashmi wrote: post #149
gregsadetsky wrote: post #93

This is an extraordinarily important and interesting “space” ripe for innovation. A few weeks ago, I was awarded one of the highest civilian public awards from the Commandant of the US Coast Guard in DC for my volunteer web mapping work during Harvey. That work helped coordinate 700 helicopter sorties and save 1700 lives. I’ve been thinking — and talking with Emergency Responders — about what an up to date 911 would…

https://www.fastcompany.com/40475242/how-a-hacker-helped-the...

Cheers :)

For those who can read/understand (or are learning) French, here’s a recent radio interview (there’s a photo of the medal as well in the article):

https://ici.radio-canada.ca/premiere/emissions/medium-large/...

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#172

Post by gregsadetsky »

lisper wrote: post #154
gregsadetsky wrote: post #93

This is an extraordinarily important and interesting “space” ripe for innovation. A few weeks ago, I was awarded one of the highest civilian public awards from the Commandant of the US Coast Guard in DC for my volunteer web mapping work during Harvey. That work helped coordinate 700 helicopter sorties and save 1700 lives. I’ve been thinking — and talking with Emergency Responders — about what an up to date 911 would…

> Imagine! I am, and it scares the hell out of me. If I have to choose between having emergency responders possibly not being able to locate me, and having the government be able to track my every move along with everyone else's, it's not even a hard choice: I'll take the former as by far the lesser of the two evils. Being able to reliably hide my location is every bit as important to personal freedom as being able t…

This is not about opening a backdoor that would allow 911/etc. to request your phone’s location.

It’s only about sending your location when you specifically ask for help in an emergency situation.

—

That being said, mobile phones are inherently trackable by mobile carriers using triangulation. I know it’s obvious, but it’s worth considering that staying untrackable with a mobile is, as far as I understand, fundamentally impossible.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#173

Post by dwild »

lisper wrote: post #154
gregsadetsky wrote: post #93

This is an extraordinarily important and interesting “space” ripe for innovation. A few weeks ago, I was awarded one of the highest civilian public awards from the Commandant of the US Coast Guard in DC for my volunteer web mapping work during Harvey. That work helped coordinate 700 helicopter sorties and save 1700 lives. I’ve been thinking — and talking with Emergency Responders — about what an up to date 911 would…

> Imagine! I am, and it scares the hell out of me. If I have to choose between having emergency responders possibly not being able to locate me, and having the government be able to track my every move along with everyone else's, it's not even a hard choice: I'll take the former as by far the lesser of the two evils. Being able to reliably hide my location is every bit as important to personal freedom as being able t…

What scare you? That by calling 911 you allow them to see and hear what you do? It's easy to extrapolate and use the "slippery slope" argument but that doesn't make sense here.

It's an emergency, you are calling an emergency line. That line should have priority access to information while you are calling for help.

Don't want any of that?... Well I guess don't call the emergency line... or whatever...

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#175

Post by lisper »

dwild wrote: post #173
lisper wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine! I am, and it scares the hell out of me. If I have to choose between having emergency responders possibly not being able to locate me, and having the government be able to track my every move along with everyone else's, it's not even a hard choice: I'll take the former as by far the lesser of the two evils. Being able to reliably hide my location is every bit as important to personal freedom as being able t…

What scare you? That by calling 911 you allow them to see and hear what you do? It's easy to extrapolate and use the "slippery slope" argument but that doesn't make sense here. It's an emergency, you are calling an emergency line. That line should have priority access to information while you are calling for help. Don't want any of that?... Well I guess don't call the emergency line... or whatever...

How can I be sure that the underlying mechanism doesn't have a back door that allows anyone with access to track me all the time?

Your argument is very similar to the argument advanced by the government for key escrow and other backdoors in encryption systems: this mechanism will only be used with proper legal safeguards to catch "bad guys". Don't you want that?

No, I don't. I really don't.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#176

Post by lisper »

gregsadetsky wrote: post #172
lisper wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine! I am, and it scares the hell out of me. If I have to choose between having emergency responders possibly not being able to locate me, and having the government be able to track my every move along with everyone else's, it's not even a hard choice: I'll take the former as by far the lesser of the two evils. Being able to reliably hide my location is every bit as important to personal freedom as being able t…

This is not about opening a backdoor that would allow 911/etc. to request your phone’s location. It’s only about sending your location when you specifically ask for help in an emergency situation. — That being said, mobile phones are inherently trackable by mobile carriers using triangulation. I know it’s obvious, but it’s worth considering that staying untrackable with a mobile is, as far as I understand, fundamenta…

> It’s only about sending your location when you specifically ask for help in an emergency situation.

No, it's not. Go back and re-read the comment I was responding to. Pay particular attention to the following passages:

> Consider how much real-time location info — and live HD video streams — can 1 mobile phone produce, and how close to none of that is available in an emergency situation.

> Consider how 911 is but one service, and that this is a worldwide problem. And that smartphones are worldwide too, and that there’s hundreds of millions of them.

The GP is specifically talking about expanding the capability beyond just location and beyond just 911, and talking about this as if it were a foregone conclusion that this will be an unalloyed good. That is what scares me.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#177

Post by kelnos »

tempz wrote: post #165
patmcc wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> it's not even a hard choice: I'll take the former as by far the lesser of the two evils. Right or wrong, I think you're in the extreme minority here. Edit: I'm not necessarily speaking for myself here, but then I'm in a low-risk area and demographic, so am not especially likely to need 911. But I think the average "man on the street" would not give a second thought about it.

No he is not. Do not confuse 'minority' with 'people comfortable expressing unpopular opinions'.

Except that they're often (usually?) one and the same. If the opinion was popular, it wouldn't be minority.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#178

Post by dingaling »

dbcooperlives wrote: post #106

I have been deploying e911 call taking systems for more than 10 years. All the areas that I service have been getting pretty accurate location data on mobile callers since I started. Initially, the providers send the location of the tower they are on and the triangulation data with the call. A couple of seconds later they will send more accurate GPS coordinates for most calls, which are usually pretty good. Sometimes…

> A couple of seconds later they will send more accurate GPS coordinates for most calls

I wish my day-to-day GPS initialised and obtained an initial fix that quickly. Usually it needs at least five minutes, sometimes over an hour.

From an earlier job I vaguely remember that a NavStar cold-fix requires two or three minutes at a minimum with optimal conditions.

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#179

Post by [deleted] »

lisper wrote: post #176
gregsadetsky wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not about opening a backdoor that would allow 911/etc. to request your phone’s location. It’s only about sending your location when you specifically ask for help in an emergency situation. — That being said, mobile phones are inherently trackable by mobile carriers using triangulation. I know it’s obvious, but it’s worth considering that staying untrackable with a mobile is, as far as I understand, fundamenta…

> It’s only about sending your location when you specifically ask for help in an emergency situation. No, it's not. Go back and re-read the comment I was responding to. Pay particular attention to the following passages: > Consider how much real-time location info — and live HD video streams — can 1 mobile phone produce, and how close to none of that is available in an emergency situation. > Consider how 911 is but o…

[deleted]

Re: Apple sets up iPhones to relay location for 911 calls

#180

Post by gregsadetsky »

lisper wrote: post #176
gregsadetsky wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not about opening a backdoor that would allow 911/etc. to request your phone’s location. It’s only about sending your location when you specifically ask for help in an emergency situation. — That being said, mobile phones are inherently trackable by mobile carriers using triangulation. I know it’s obvious, but it’s worth considering that staying untrackable with a mobile is, as far as I understand, fundamenta…

> It’s only about sending your location when you specifically ask for help in an emergency situation. No, it's not. Go back and re-read the comment I was responding to. Pay particular attention to the following passages: > Consider how much real-time location info — and live HD video streams — can 1 mobile phone produce, and how close to none of that is available in an emergency situation. > Consider how 911 is but o…

The GP is me. :)

I apologize if my original comment was not clear, or could leave itself open to a different interpretation.

I really did mean that when someone in an emergency situation needs help, presently, they do not have the ability to send their location, a text message, an image or a video.

That’s it — I was only referring to emergency situations, and anything that I am discussing would be user-initiated.

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