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Cryptocurrencies: looking beyond the hype

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Re: Cryptocurrencies: looking beyond the hype

#51

Post by hybridsole »

tootie wrote: post #38
viach wrote: post #13

> it is hard to identify a specific economic problem which they currently solve It is hard to identify such a problem till you believe you can withdraw your money from a bank anytime. Visiting a bank and getting an answer "please come tomorrow" for several weeks changes a person's view on cryptocurrencies and problems they could solve, imo.

Imagine trying to pay for something with crypto and having the seller deride it as fake money that they refuse to accept. That is illegal with officially minted currency.

I'll give you $5k for a bitcoin, and I could find you 100 people within 100 miles of you who would do the same thing today. It has value because people give it value.

Re: Cryptocurrencies: looking beyond the hype

#52

Post by phobosdeimos »

aeternus wrote: post #44
phobosdeimos wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin for us mere mortals who are not drugdealers seems unlikely. It simply doesn't solve a problem that people have. I can pay for my groceries waving a plastic card around and it costs me nothing. Traditional payment systems are safer, cheaper and more efficient than crypto.

If the Bitcoin community gets lightning network off the ground (it's very close), it solves the problem of micropayments. This is a problem many people likely have that they are not aware of. Ability to pay a fraction of a cent for each article you read online could eliminate the need for both annoying paywalls & ads. Traditional payment systems are actually quite expensive, you just don't see it since the merchant p…

Well I wasn't talking about CC, those are daylight robbery. €0,056 flat transaction fee is the target that I challenge crypto to beat. Thats what my employer pays to banks.

Re: Cryptocurrencies: looking beyond the hype

#53

Post by krupan »

chrisco255 wrote: post #37
banachtarski wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Receiving money without being exposed to the danger of fraud. Receiving money via Credit Card is surprisingly risky for the merchant. We have this well established thing called a credit score which is handled by the credit card agency and resolves trust issues for the merchant entirely. If a person suspects identity theft, they can put a hold on a card, preventing further use. Cards have expiration dates and period…

In the past couple years, my credit card number has been scanned at least 3 or 4 times from (likely) gas pump readers. Those scans resulted in transactions that I didn't have to pay for (but some merchant did).

and with bitcoin that type of attack is impossible

Re: Cryptocurrencies: looking beyond the hype

#54

Post by fernandopj »

DmenshunlAnlsis wrote: post #9
CrazyInNewYork wrote: post #2

it is hard to identify a specific economic problem which they currently solve Receiving, owning and spending money anonymously. Remember when extortionists had to be paid with a suitcase full of banknotes? Receiving money without being exposed to the danger of fraud. Receiving money via Credit Card is surprisingly risky for the merchant. Transferring money internationally without additional costs. Portfolio optimizat…

Receiving, owning and spending money anonymously. Remember when extortionists had to be paid with a suitcase full of banknotes? Most cryptocurrency isnt anonymous, and certainly Bitcoin isn’t. In fact it’s arguable that the public ledger nature makes it far less anonymous than almost anything else. What it is, is easier to launder, hence the extortionist wet dreams. Why is it a feature of a currency to have the most…

> Receiving money via Credit Card is surprisingly risky for the merchant.

> It really isn’t.

Also on that: receiving money via CC is not always straightfoward, you'd be suprised how much effort (not to mention money) merchants have to spend auditing and verifying that what they're supposed to get (what they sold) are actually being credited to their bank account.

Re: Cryptocurrencies: looking beyond the hype

#55

Post by mtve »

CiPHPerCoder wrote: post #17

> Yet, looking beyond the hype, it is hard to identify a specific economic problem which they currently solve. People seem to forget that cryptocurrencies emerged from a culture of cryptoanarchy, not from economists or governments. Anarchists generally don't want to help the government solve problems, they view the government as the very problem to solve. (I'm speaking very broadly here.)

very well said, thank you so much.

Re: Cryptocurrencies: looking beyond the hype

#56

Post by a_c_s »

kneel wrote: post #8
banachtarski wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Receiving money without being exposed to the danger of fraud. Receiving money via Credit Card is surprisingly risky for the merchant. We have this well established thing called a credit score which is handled by the credit card agency and resolves trust issues for the merchant entirely. If a person suspects identity theft, they can put a hold on a card, preventing further use. Cards have expiration dates and period…

>We have this well established thing called a credit score which is handled by the credit card agency and resolves trust issues for the merchant entirely. We have this well established phenomenon called 'data breaches' which has compromised nearly everyone's credit/personal data. Your info is on the dark web. Lots of databases that can be cross correlated. Banks increasingly don't know who they're dealing with, fraud…

Consumers don't need to worry about this though: all fraudulent charges are removed from the customer's account and are somebody else's problem. The customer gets a new credit card sent to them, sometimes even overnight, for free.

I've had both credit and debit card fraud happen to my accounts: it is a pretty minor annoyance.

(A data breach of my Social Security Number would be a whole different story however!)

Re: Cryptocurrencies: looking beyond the hype

#57

Post by 21 »

vthallam wrote: post #48
21 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is stopping a state actor from using their backdoors in internet infrastructure to destroy the Bitcoin network Laws. In the Western world, something is legal unless explicitly forbidden by laws. Countries which don't care very much about freedom explicitly banned Bitcoin more or less (China, Russia, India, Indonesia, Venezuela, ...)

I'm really surprised you including India in the list. India is as democratic as the USA. The laws were put in place in India at least around Crypto to save people from being scammed.

Fair enough. I don't know that much about India. I do know they tend to limit financial freedoms - capital controls, gold imports, now Bitcoin. Maybe it's for the better, but it's less free than the Western world on this front nonetheless.

Re: Cryptocurrencies: looking beyond the hype

#58

Post by EthanHeilman »

bena wrote: post #47
EthanHeilman wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can build in the ability to reverse cryptocurrency transactions into wallets however that use case is well covered by credit cards. Credit cards/checks: Merchant trusts user, user doesn't trust merchant Wire-transfers/Cashiers Checks/Cash/Bitcoin: User trusts merchant, merchant doesn't trust user

> You can build in the ability to reverse cryptocurrency transactions into wallets But that just puts the risk back with the other party. We're just back to the credit card scenario like you mentioned. The point is that crypto can't get rid of the issue of trust. At some level, there has to be some level of trust in order to perform a transaction. No matter what we do, all we're doing is pushing the trust somewhere e…

>The point is that crypto can't get rid of the issue of trust. At some level, there has to be some level of trust in order to perform a transaction.

This is generally true however there are some exceptions. You can trustlessly trade Bitcoins for solutions to particular problems e.g. the preimage of a particular hash. This can be extended to a much larger class of problems with Zero Knowledge Contingent Payment (ZKCP).

Re: Cryptocurrencies: looking beyond the hype

#59

Post by stale2002 »

bena wrote: post #47
EthanHeilman wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can build in the ability to reverse cryptocurrency transactions into wallets however that use case is well covered by credit cards. Credit cards/checks: Merchant trusts user, user doesn't trust merchant Wire-transfers/Cashiers Checks/Cash/Bitcoin: User trusts merchant, merchant doesn't trust user

> You can build in the ability to reverse cryptocurrency transactions into wallets But that just puts the risk back with the other party. We're just back to the credit card scenario like you mentioned. The point is that crypto can't get rid of the issue of trust. At some level, there has to be some level of trust in order to perform a transaction. No matter what we do, all we're doing is pushing the trust somewhere e…

Ok, and that's fine. It gives people choice.

If people want the option where you trust the customer, that's what credit cards are for.

And if people make the opposite choice, that is ALSO ok, and is what crypto is for.

It is still very valuable to be able to move that trust somewhere else.

To give a concrete example, what if the merchant is inherently more trust worth in a specific market? Then, it is BETTER to put that trust on the merchant.

Re: Cryptocurrencies: looking beyond the hype

#60

Post by stale2002 »

soVeryTired wrote: post #10
CrazyInNewYork wrote: post #2

it is hard to identify a specific economic problem which they currently solve Receiving, owning and spending money anonymously. Remember when extortionists had to be paid with a suitcase full of banknotes? Receiving money without being exposed to the danger of fraud. Receiving money via Credit Card is surprisingly risky for the merchant. Transferring money internationally without additional costs. Portfolio optimizat…

> Receiving money without being exposed to the danger of fraud. Receiving money via Credit Card is surprisingly risky for the merchant. I'm pretty sure cryptocurrencies just move the risks around, rather than eliminating them. Currently, the vendor is on the hook for stolen credit cards. With cryptocurrencies, the currency owner is on the hook. You could accomplish the same shift in the burden of risks with a legisla…

Being able to move the trust around is still valuable.

IE, if the merchant is more trustworthy, then we want that trust to be with the merchant, and on with the customer.

When the merchant is less trustworthy, well that's what credit cards are for.

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