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The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

economist.com

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Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#11

Post by Hnrobert42 »

zeth___ wrote: post #2

>To be a great, rather than just a big power, China needs the world’s acceptance. More open domestic markets, fewer hidden subsidies and less dumping, less industrial espionage and less aggression in the South China Sea would all help. Why? The US posturing and genocide in South America for 200 years did not stop it from being a great power, that the pacific rim will now see the same from a yellow and not white face…

Many would argue your example supports the author’s point. US meddling in South and Central America significantly tarnished the US reputation. Further, destabilzed govts led to underperforming economies that could be great alternative trade partners. Instead, those countries are now vulnerable to Chinese influence in return for investment captial.

While you may have wished to divert attention from China or simply return to your favorite whipping boy, you also highlight the need to conform with Western ideals.

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#12

Post by zeth___ »

em3rgent0rdr wrote: post #10
coldtea wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny how pundits from countries that have (and are still doing) all those things, point the finger at other countries for doing the same (and, internationally, far less). "aggression in the South China Sea"? The US has invaded 3+ countries in the last 20 years producing as much failed states. Is it just a "big" and not a "great" power?

Note: The Economist is British.

So was Thatcher, but you could find no one better cheerleader for the Neo-liberal policies of the US than her.

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#13

Post by geowwy »

This seems to be the key paragraph:

  > A confident power permits debate to flourish, unthreatened by ideas; a fearful
  > one will seek to manipulate or shut it down. The party is increasingly obliged
  > to try to replicate its domestic censorship on a global scale, to suppress
  > views of China that the party does not like, wherever they are manifested.
  > Sustained investment in propaganda in Chinese-language media and in Western
  > media, subtle and unsubtle attempts to exert influence through the party’s
  > United Front Work Department, pressuring business partners to support
  > political positions on Taiwan and the South China Sea, buying political
  > influence and muscle-flexing on Western campuses—all have caused alarm in
  > several countries recently, notably in Australia and New Zealand.
I guess it shouldn't surprise anyone that China is trying to control the narrative overseas. Most major powers try to do the same.

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#14

Post by em3rgent0rdr »

Interesting how the State-Socialist authoritarian countries ended up not actually being an existential threat to freedom, due to the weakness of a planned economy. But since China embraced capitalism, it's economy became very strong, and so is now a more serious threat.

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#15

Post by zeth___ »

Hnrobert42 wrote: post #11
zeth___ wrote: post #2

>To be a great, rather than just a big power, China needs the world’s acceptance. More open domestic markets, fewer hidden subsidies and less dumping, less industrial espionage and less aggression in the South China Sea would all help. Why? The US posturing and genocide in South America for 200 years did not stop it from being a great power, that the pacific rim will now see the same from a yellow and not white face…

Many would argue your example supports the author’s point. US meddling in South and Central America significantly tarnished the US reputation. Further, destabilzed govts led to underperforming economies that could be great alternative trade partners. Instead, those countries are now vulnerable to Chinese influence in return for investment captial. While you may have wished to divert attention from China or simply ret…

If the US reputation was tarnished so much list all the countries where US backed invasions or coups killed more than 100,000 people in the 20th century.

And please call it what it is: genocide.

I do enjoy a bit of whataboutism in the morning, the need to not murder millions is not a western ideal, the First, Second, Korean, Vietnam and Iraq wars all show how little value democracies place on the lives of non-citizens.

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#16

Post by tehlike »

oceanman888 wrote: post #9
jgbond wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or perhaps it could be a cooperative relationship where neither side has to fear?

Maybe block-chain can actually be useful this time, it is quite easy to create a news forum that even the most powerful government can not bring down. where educated individuals are rewarded to vote on articles just like HN. Here in JP we see people holding cardboard stating how they are miss-treated in front of the ward office. Letting these voice be heard means more leverage to the citizen. like pressuring law chan…

Uncensorable distributed apps existed long before blockchain. I really hope you were sarcastic

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#17

Post by mirgj »

geowwy wrote: post #13

This seems to be the key paragraph: > A confident power permits debate to flourish, unthreatened by ideas; a fearful > one will seek to manipulate or shut it down. The party is increasingly obliged > to try to replicate its domestic censorship on a global scale, to suppress > views of China that the party does not like, wherever they are manifested. > Sustained investment in propaganda in Chinese-language media and i…

Yes, indeed. It's quite strange that we never had this kind of criticism against US in the past when they always used the same kind of diplomacy (I mean, they're still doing it).

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#18

Post by saagarjha »

jgbond wrote: post #4
saagarjha wrote: post #3

I'd argue that a government is supposed to fear its citizens. It's just not supposed to censor them and take away their rights to quell that fear: rather, it should hold itself accountable and not do things that would cause resentment.

Or perhaps it could be a cooperative relationship where neither side has to fear?

I'd love to hear more about how you intend to achieve this in a way that doesn't greatly reward either side for behaving poorly.

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#19

Post by dalbasal »

saagarjha wrote: post #3

I'd argue that a government is supposed to fear its citizens. It's just not supposed to censor them and take away their rights to quell that fear: rather, it should hold itself accountable and not do things that would cause resentment.

That's (to my ears) a very American sentiment. I'd say the closest thing we have in Europe would be found in France. It also carries a soft but audible 18th century, liberal resonance. Yous really are sister republics. Heh.

Anyway... I disagree (amicably). I think this is a terrible state of affairs. A fearful regime is a dangerous one. Fear is the enemy of "us" and this is degenerative to a republic, and oppressive in non-republics. The GDR feared the people would overthrow. Assad fears the people.

It doesn't generally result in "we'll do a better job so they like us." It results in building up a populist (and sometimes violent) popular counterbalance. It results in paranoid spying and attempts at control.

I know HN prefers high brow, philosophical quotes but this really does sum everything up, even if it's campy.

Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering - yoda

Re: The Chinese Communist Party’s fear of its people spells trouble

#20

Post by oceanman888 »

tehlike wrote: post #16
oceanman888 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe block-chain can actually be useful this time, it is quite easy to create a news forum that even the most powerful government can not bring down. where educated individuals are rewarded to vote on articles just like HN. Here in JP we see people holding cardboard stating how they are miss-treated in front of the ward office. Letting these voice be heard means more leverage to the citizen. like pressuring law chan…

Uncensorable distributed apps existed long before blockchain. I really hope you were sarcastic

That is ignorant of me, I know it existed but can't recall any popular ones that wasn't knocked down eventually, do you mind linking some source? thanks.
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