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Asian-American admissions at Harvard

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Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#101

Post by colordrops »

learc83 wrote: post #90
colordrops wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that it's not clear that the advantage is so much as to be a relevant factor. I grew up in a very poor minority neighborhood and the language the teachers used in school was the same as the ones on the standardized test, so it's not like I wasn't prepared. It's almost insulting to think that dialect matters that much considering how much exposure everyone gets to the mainstream…

How much of an impact it has is debatable, but the academic consensus is that it is relevant. If you trust your own experiences and opinions more than the current research, there isn't much I can do to convince you otherwise. >It's almost insulting to think that dialect matters that much considering how much exposure everyone gets to the mainstream dialect. Whether it's insulting is irrelevant to whether it's true. >…

Do you have a link to the study? I'm curious what "relevant" means in this case.

From the beginning I've not denied that dialect can have an effect, only that I believe it to overwhelmed by a sea of countless other factors that cause someone to succeed or fail at getting into college, and I haven't seen any data that shows that it is the prevailing factor and one that truly matters.

The subtext to my comments is that this a debatable point, and I interjected because others were throwing veiled insults and calls of racism at anyone who tries to discuss this, which is an unfair way to shut conversation down.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#102

Post by tzs »

doubleunplussed wrote: post #25
rdtsc wrote: post #15

The linked report (exhibit A) is interesting to read: http://samv91khoyt2i553a2t1s05i-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-c... It would seem at first that Harvard wants to help poor students and race just happens to be a proxy for socioeconomic status, but it turns out that's not what they are doing: > Harvard’s preferential treatment of African-American and Hispanic applicants is not the result of efforts to achieve socioeco…

Yep. Affirmative action has biases of its own, should be blinded to prevent it. Let it be based on family income only. In Australia university admissions are based pretty much solely on one number [1] that represents your high school results (unless you didn't go to high school in Australia), plus bonus points if you are disadvantaged (for which race is not relevant unless you are an indigenous Australian or Torres S…

> In Australia university admissions are based pretty much solely on one number [1] that represents your high school results (unless you didn't go to high school in Australia), plus bonus points if you are disadvantaged

How does this work with universities that have different focuses?

From the information at [1] and at your Wikipedia link, my understanding is that the way this number works is as follows.

• There is a large list [2] of standard courses offered by high schools that can count toward your ATAR score. Each course is either 1 or 2 "units". These include courses in English, foreign languages, science, math, history, business, arts, and others.

• This list is divided into two sections. The second, smaller section is courses that are lighter academic rigor and less demanding. The courses in the first section are called Category A course, and those in the second section are Category B courses.

• Your ATAR is calculated from your best 2 units in English, and your best 8 units from the rest, which can include no more than 2 units of Category B courses.

Suppose you have three students, all with the same ATAR number.

Student #1's score came from English, Biology, Chemistry, Mathematics, and Physics.

Student #2's score came from English, Dance, Drama, Music 1, Music 2, and Visual Arts.

Student #3's score came from English, Ancient History, Latin, Greek, and Modern History.

Do the universities these students apply to just see the ATAR number, or do they also see which courses went into its calculation?

If they all applied to whatever Australian school best corresponds to MIT or Caltech, for example, would the school be able to see that student #1 is probably the one they want from these three? If they all applied to Australia's most Julliard-like school, would it be able to see that student #2 is the one they want?

[1] https://www.uac.edu.au/

[2] https://www.uac.edu.au/future-applicants/atar/atar-courses

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#103

Post by toasterlovin »

learc83 wrote: post #100
toasterlovin wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The children of East Asian immigrants perform better than the children of white Americans. How does the language hypothesis you put forth account for that?

1. We don't know that. We know that Asian Americans outperform whites, but Asian American can refer to 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc... generation immigrants. 2. Asian immigrants tend to learn the prestige dialect (the dialect the SAT is written in), so if their children are native English speakers, they tend to learn that dialect natively. 4. Language differences are a factor in performance but obviously not the only factor or…

> 1. We don't know that. We know that Asian Americans outperform whites, but Asian American can refer to 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc... generation immigrants.

A quick glance at the first graph on this page will tell you that almost all Asian Americans are either first or second generation:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/09/08/key-facts-ab...

Key stats: Asian American population in 2015 is slightly more than 20 million. In 1960 it is about 1 million and only about 2.5 million in 1980.

> 2. Asian immigrants tend to learn the prestige dialect (the dialect the SAT is written in), so if their children are native English speakers, they tend to learn that dialect natively.

Is it somehow easier for Asian immigrants to learn the prestige dialect than Hispanic immigrants?

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#104

Post by jiminy_john »

learc83 wrote: post #79
jiminy_john wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you want to not test people in English but in some vague universal language?! What would that be: "equality of outcome"? Propaganda?!

Yes. You've correctly read between the lines to discover my hidden, unwritten argument. All standardized testing should be conducted in the universal language of interpretive dance.

Solid stuff right here!

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#105

Post by lopmotr »

tomdell wrote: post #10
toasterlovin wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To say nothing of the logical contortions required to argue that modern standardized tests discriminates based on ancestry or skin color.

That is not the argument. Tests are written by people who talk a certain way, in a way that is easier to process for people who talk the same way. Different communities use different language, and this is reflected in how quickly different students process the problems on standardized tests. There's also the issue that standardized test scores are higher for students who have the time and encouragement to study for t…

Why are people jumping through hoops trying to imagine possible reasons for differences in academic performance when the best predictor is IQ and that can be measured from just a few years of age - before they would have to spend time studying or taking care of younger siblings. We already know that east Asian children have higher IQs on average than whites. That explains their better test scores at school. We also know that blacks have lower IQs than whites which also explains their lower test scores. So if you're looking for a cause of the different outcomes, you should look for the cause of different IQs. Since that starts young, maybe black parents don't hug their kids as much as Asian parents (that affects IQ) or maybe it's genetic (that affects IQ). The popular Raven's matrices IQ test has no words, just abstract images so there's no language bias there. Researchers have studied this to death over and over again for 100 years and they keep successfully reproducing the same results. They try everything to eliminate bias, such as having the test administrators be the same race as the subjects and controlling for socioeconomic status and going to different countries and controlling for the economic status of the country and so on. It's a solved problem down to the IQ level. What's not solved is how to improve the IQ of a person after they're born. You can improve it before birth by choosing parents with high IQs.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#106

Post by rdl »

zeth___ wrote: post #85
rdl wrote: post #83

With computer based testing, we should be able to make a far better test than the SAT -- something where being able to master it would actually be solid evidence of both "g" and knowledge.

You mean something that throws out g completely?

No, something that has multiple parts -- "g" (i.e. not requiring demonstrating external domain knowledge already known before the test), tests of domain expertise in whatever common body of knowledge a university wants, and a section which demonstrates previous effort to study/prepare. All 3 of these are worth knowing independently -- for some degrees programs, IQ alone would likely be sufficient. For others, a moderate level of IQ and a high level of willingness to study. For short certificate type programs, showing extensive pre-existing knowledge could be a big factor.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#107

Post by seneca14 »

While Jewish people make up less than 2% of the American population. They constitute 67% (yes you read correctly!) of Harvard graduates. In many cases "white privilege" is in fact Jewish privilege. Even after correcting for higher mean verbal IQ, there is still a high overrepresentation. Which leads to nepotism (Harvard leadership is predominantly Jewish) as the most likely explanation. This sounds to me like institutional racism against Asian- and European Americans.

http://www.hillel.org/college-guide/list/record/harvard-univ...

http://www.unz.com/runz/the-myth-of-american-meritocracy/

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#108

Post by jpao79 »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #87
jpao79 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There could be a case that it is not just for photographs but it is actually the marketing pitch for the value proposition of Harvard over, as the Tyler Cowen mentions, UC Irvine. If you are trying to train and prepare a student to lead global teams, set global government policy, guide diverse groups toward a common solution, etc., you will need exposure to a diverse set of ideas and a diverse future network of fello…

>If you are trying to train and prepare a student to lead global teams, set global government policy, guide diverse groups toward a common solution, That's a pretty big if, people in power like to keep it in their network.

Ah - maybe a better way to phrase it is, if Harvard is pitching itself as a place a person can learn to lead global teams, set optimal global government policy, guide diverse groups toward a common solution, then the student body should probably not just be high test scorers pulled from high test affluent suburbs. It should be pulled from a variety of sources with a diverse set of socioeconomic, academic, artistic and cultural experiences.

I think that's actually a secret of Silicon Valley. If Apple needs to ask how a UI should be setup to handle the nuances from a certain country, they can go ask a person from that country. It'd be much harder trying to do that in Asia or even Europe.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#109

Post by learc83 »

toasterlovin wrote: post #103
learc83 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. We don't know that. We know that Asian Americans outperform whites, but Asian American can refer to 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc... generation immigrants. 2. Asian immigrants tend to learn the prestige dialect (the dialect the SAT is written in), so if their children are native English speakers, they tend to learn that dialect natively. 4. Language differences are a factor in performance but obviously not the only factor or…

> 1. We don't know that. We know that Asian Americans outperform whites, but Asian American can refer to 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc... generation immigrants. A quick glance at the first graph on this page will tell you that almost all Asian Americans are either first or second generation: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/09/08/key-facts-ab... Key stats: Asian American population in 2015 is slightly more than 20 milli…

None of that shows the rate at which Asian Americans take the SAT, the birth rates of 2.5 million Asian Americans who were here in 1980, or the ages of the Asians who've immigrated since. So saying that we have an extra 17.5 million Asian Americans, and Asian Americans outperform whites on the SAT, therefore 2nd generation Asian Americans outperform whites isn't supported by the evidence presented so far.

However none of that really matters because you ignored my last point.

Other factors such as family income are larger factors that native language.

>Is it somehow easier for Asian immigrants to learn the prestige dialect than Hispanic immigrants?

If it's easier is irrelevant because Asian Americans are more likely to speak the prestige dialect than Hispanics. But to answer your question, yes it is eaiser because Asians have much higher incomes, and they integrate with white communities faster--at least in part because Asian communities are smaller and more spread out.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#110

Post by toasterlovin »

learc83 wrote: post #109
toasterlovin wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. We don't know that. We know that Asian Americans outperform whites, but Asian American can refer to 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc... generation immigrants. A quick glance at the first graph on this page will tell you that almost all Asian Americans are either first or second generation: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/09/08/key-facts-ab... Key stats: Asian American population in 2015 is slightly more than 20 milli…

None of that shows the rate at which Asian Americans take the SAT, the birth rates of 2.5 million Asian Americans who were here in 1980, or the ages of the Asians who've immigrated since. So saying that we have an extra 17.5 million Asian Americans, and Asian Americans outperform whites on the SAT, therefore 2nd generation Asian Americans outperform whites isn't supported by the evidence presented so far. However non…

Yeah, and my original point was that these tests don’t discriminate based on skin color or ancestry. What you’re saying is that different races have different aggregate outcomes, but that that is due to different aggregate income levels. That doesn’t really sound like you disagree with my original point.
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