There's a similar issue going on at the NYC elite public schools like Stuyvesant and Bronx Science. Mayor De Blasio is pushing to drop the entrance exams for those schools pretty much for the exact same reason. This guy discusses it in this Youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QixRuK68lk4
Harvard Rated Asian-American Applicants Lower on Personality Traits: Lawsuit
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Re: Harvard Rated Asian-American Applicants Lower on Personality Traits: Lawsuit
#152Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Your score dictates what major you’ll study for the next 3-4 years. Do you have more info available on that? That sounds really bizarre to me.
Unlike in American colleges, students in India apply to both a college and a major at that college. So competition for desirable majors in the top schools is cutthroat. If you don't get enough marks you don't get to study that major at that college - either go to a different college or (in the case of really high reputation institutes like the IITs) study something else at that college. Generally you can't change you…
It's very similar in Spain (and I imagine many other European countries). Your grade (a single number representing a combination of high school grades and standard university admission exam results) determines which major you can study at which university. In fact the cut-off score between majors varies much more than between universities.
Re: Harvard Rated Asian-American Applicants Lower on Personality Traits: Lawsuit
#153I can't help but think that college admissions based solely on test scores (as done in India, Russia, maybe China?), and nothing else, might be the least unfair way to judge applicants. Every admission system is unfair in some way but tests are a yardstick everyone understands and can optimize for. In India they publicly post the list of admitted students and their marks. Richer students may benefit from higher-quali…
> I can't help but think that college admissions based solely on test scores (as done in India, Russia, maybe China?)
Russian here, this is not entirely correct. Instead of race you have region and when that region is 80-90%+ single ethnicity then a region division serves as "race-by-proxy".
You can also get a certain region overrepresented (with regards to it's total population) and by extension certain ethnicity as well.
Re: Harvard Rated Asian-American Applicants Lower on Personality Traits: Lawsuit
#154Earlier quoted context omitted.
Interesting. Thanks for providing that additional viewpoint. My impression, based on my experience navigating the American grad school admissions process, was that the undergrad process was the same thing turned up to 11. I read about personal essay writers and interview coaches and the right set of extracurricular activities.
Not at all, only for the top schools. I got into 2 of my state schools (1 of which is also being sued for this) and I was a very average student (#2 in class, 1500/1600, 66 college credits). You only need a fancy resume if you apply to the T20 schools, some of which are more selective if you’re from out of state.
I think you're being overly modest; #2 in your class is by definition not "very average" :-). Unless you're saying that the average applicant at your school was #2 in their class and had a 1500 SAT score. Which again would put your school in the top bracket by my estimation, even if it's a state school.
Re: Harvard Rated Asian-American Applicants Lower on Personality Traits: Lawsuit
#155I can't help but think that college admissions based solely on test scores (as done in India, Russia, maybe China?), and nothing else, might be the least unfair way to judge applicants. Every admission system is unfair in some way but tests are a yardstick everyone understands and can optimize for. In India they publicly post the list of admitted students and their marks. Richer students may benefit from higher-quali…
> I can't help but think that college admissions based solely on test scores (as done in India, Russia, maybe China?) Russian here, this is not entirely correct. Instead of race you have region and when that region is 80-90%+ single ethnicity then a region division serves as "race-by-proxy". You can also get a certain region overrepresented (with regards to it's total population) and by extension certain ethnicity as…
I'm sorry I don't think I understood. I didn't mention race anywhere in my comment.
You're saying that students from certain regions in Russia do better on tests and are therefore overrepresented in colleges?
Re: Harvard Rated Asian-American Applicants Lower on Personality Traits: Lawsuit
#156Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not at all, only for the top schools. I got into 2 of my state schools (1 of which is also being sued for this) and I was a very average student (#2 in class, 1500/1600, 66 college credits). You only need a fancy resume if you apply to the T20 schools, some of which are more selective if you’re from out of state.
I think you're being overly modest; #2 in your class is by definition not "very average" :-). Unless you're saying that the average applicant at your school was #2 in their class and had a 1500 SAT score. Which again would put your school in the top bracket by my estimation, even if it's a state school.
No kidding. #2 in class and 1500/1600 puts you in the running for Harvard/Stanford, does it not? At the very least that does not sound like a "very average student".
Re: Harvard Rated Asian-American Applicants Lower on Personality Traits: Lawsuit
#157Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think you're being overly modest; #2 in your class is by definition not "very average" :-). Unless you're saying that the average applicant at your school was #2 in their class and had a 1500 SAT score. Which again would put your school in the top bracket by my estimation, even if it's a state school.
No kidding. #2 in class and 1500/1600 puts you in the running for Harvard/Stanford, does it not? At the very least that does not sound like a "very average student".
It really doesn't. I was #2 in a class of 39 (lol) and my Math SAT was pretty poor (710) - not good enough to get into schools like CMU, Berkeley, or even GT.
Plus I didn't have research, ISEF awards, USAMO/USACO medals, and everything else that's expected at elite institutions.
Re: Harvard Rated Asian-American Applicants Lower on Personality Traits: Lawsuit
#158While Jewish people make up less than 2% of the American population. They constitute 67% (yes you read correctly!) of Harvard graduates. In many cases "white privilege" is in fact Jewish privilege. Even after correcting for higher mean verbal IQ, there is still a high overrepresentation. Which leads to nepotism (Harvard leadership is predominantly Jewish) as the most likely explanation. This sounds to me like institutional racism against Asian- and European Americans.
http://www.hillel.org/college-guide/list/record/harvard-univ...
Re: Harvard Rated Asian-American Applicants Lower on Personality Traits: Lawsuit
#159Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Your score dictates what major you’ll study for the next 3-4 years. Do you have more info available on that? That sounds really bizarre to me.
Unlike in American colleges, students in India apply to both a college and a major at that college. So competition for desirable majors in the top schools is cutthroat. If you don't get enough marks you don't get to study that major at that college - either go to a different college or (in the case of really high reputation institutes like the IITs) study something else at that college. Generally you can't change you…
There are similar elements in how the electrical engineering computer science and letters & science computer science programs at UC Berkeley admitted people in the early 2000's.
L&SCS admitted you to the university and department, but you didn't get officially into the major until after 2 years of taking prerequisites. Admission to the CS major was very competitive, and yet if you didn't get high enough grades to beat the curve, you didn't get into the major and had 2 years of CS prereqs. Choosing another major at that point required either studying in uni for longer or graduating in a "normal" time while studying something from a very limited set of options.
EECS had a much more competitive acceptance curve. If you were accepted into the department, your position in the major was secured. If you didn't get into the department, you also didn't get into Berkeley.
My closest friends applied to L&S CS, while I applied to EECS. I didn't get into Berkeley, while my friends didn't make it through the meat grinder prerequisite years.
Looking back, I'm happy with my own decision to try to study what I wanted without compromise. It was definitely a blow to my ego at the time, but when I heard about how overcrowded the L&S classrooms were, I honestly think I got a better education experience at a smaller, less prestigious UC. my friends routinely told me about massive overcrowded lecture halls. If they got to class late, all seats might be taken and they had to go home and watch the lecture online. Oh and none of my Berkeley friends made it through the prerequisite grinder, either.
I don't know how the system is now, but if my nephews or nieces were considering that path, I'd look into it and make sure they were informed of how the experience was as a student. In my opinion, it was less about learning and more about proving yourself all the way through. The quality of education still seems objectively lower to me, looking back.
Re: Harvard Rated Asian-American Applicants Lower on Personality Traits: Lawsuit
#160"Alumni interviewers give Asian-Americans personal ratings comparable to those of whites. But the admissions office gives them the worst scores of any racial group, often without even meeting them, according to Prof. Arcidiacono." I can't imagine the feeling of working so hard through elementary school, middle school, and high school to get into an Ivy League school, only for an admissions panel to declare me "low in…
>I can't imagine the feeling of working so hard through elementary school, middle school, and high school to get into an Ivy League school, only for an admissions panel to declare me "low in personality" or too introverted. And yet, hundreds still get in. I went to a public school, not elite in the least, but I also worked hard throughout my K12 education like the folks you mention - and I’ll be honest, this continua…
You're not wrong. It's an insightful observation. It's a meritocratic system, but with fuzzy rules around the merits for reward.
There are few people I know whose parents would have treated them according "the most performant of you will get the best of our resources. Ready, set go.", instead of say, trying to help each child grow as much as they need.