U.S. Files Criminal Charges Against Theranos’s Elizabeth Holmes, Ramesh Balwani • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. Files Criminal Charges Against Theranos’s Elizabeth Holmes, Ramesh Balwani

#381

Post by slavik81 » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 8:39 AM UTC

sgt101 wrote: post #366

glangdale wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, rich people in Sydney just paid their employees to say "oh, I was driving that car at the time". Pretty scandalous.

Surely that is a criminal conspiracy; most places would rate that as far more serious than a license confiscation. There was a case in the UK where a politician did this with his wife and it resulted in prison for both! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Huhne I think that if money had changed hands and if guilty pleas hadn't been entered it would have been a longer sensor.

Wow. That's a divorce that went rather poorly.

He has an affair. They get a divorce. To get revenge, his ex-wife tells a journalist that he once cheated a speeding ticket. Investigation reveals she knows that because she helped him do it. They both go to prison.

This revenge idea was planned with a lawyer/judge friend of the ex-wife. When the plan backfired, the judge falsified documents to mislead investigators. The judge got the longest sentence of the three of them and was disbarred.

What a trainwreck.

Re: U.S. Files Criminal Charges Against Theranos’s Elizabeth Holmes, Ramesh Balwani

#382

Post by RaceWon » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 8:42 AM UTC

tluyben2 wrote: post #312

dghughes wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even speeding tickets or anything most normal people would find a burden are nothing to super rich. But making few days in jail mandatory is a major deterrent. Then again even people texting and driving are not swayed by fines. In my region of the world a $3,000 fine is not a deterrent to many people. I say jail time would change that attitude.

Losing your license is a major deterrent as well: as someone who finds driving a waste of time I cannot understand why rich people do it, but they do and they get extremely upset if that privilege is taken away. So 3 times and you lose your license for life? That would solve the reckless behavior and cannot be fixed with money. Ofcourse for less well off people this would be very bad (maybe not being able to go to wo…

> I cannot understand why rich people do it

This one's mine: Because it's more fun than sex.

Re: U.S. Files Criminal Charges Against Theranos’s Elizabeth Holmes, Ramesh Balwani

#383

Post by rayiner » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 8:47 AM UTC

mhneu wrote: post #238

Excellent news for American society. “The Chickenshit Club” by Eisinger recently explained why the lack of criminal charges had emboldened white collar crime. Basically, individuals need to have the risk of criminal charges if they do something very egregious - they need to have skin in the game. The US Justice Dept has in the past two decades largely only been fining corporations. And so companies estimate risk and…

> Too bad the US can’t retrospectively prosecute bankers for 2008 and claw back their size-subsidized, low risk premium profits.

The Theranos case clearly illustrates why. Fraud by the top executives of a company, who lied about what their technology can do to raise a bunch of money, and endangered patients in the process--that is a story you can explain to a jury. Even if you think there are "bankers" (curiously, you do not identify specific bankers) who broke the law, good luck explaining to a jury exactly what anyone did that was illegal.

I'd also posit that this is a very good thing. You shouldn't be able to put people in jail for a crime you can't explain to a group of a dozen ordinary people.

Re: U.S. Files Criminal Charges Against Theranos’s Elizabeth Holmes, Ramesh Balwani

#384

Post by jakobegger » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 8:53 AM UTC

briandear wrote: post #368

loeg wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or a percent of wealth. Although that isn't really effective punishment for people who blow all their income and don't save anyway.

So should jail sentences be done the same way? If I am in jail 10 days, I lose a hell of a lot more money than some bum spending the same 10 days. So the cost of jail is much greater to me on a per day basis. This “based on wealth” concept is fine, assuming that also applies to jail sentences. We can’t expect an egalitarian scheme for fines if we neglect the same consideration for jail. Assuming our goal is inflictin…

The idea of jail is that your personal freedom is taken away as punishment for a number of days.

How much opportunity cost those days have, or how much money you lose as a result of your jail time, is irrelevant. The punishment is taking away your personal freedom.

Jail time is a fair punishment: Nobody likes having their freedom taken from them. There is no need to scale it.

But its different for fines. If you drive a 100k€ car, you're not going to give a shit about a 50€ fine for speeding. And my personal experience seems to suggest this is true: Drivers of expensive cars often ignore speed limits and "no parking" signs.

So one thing we could do is add a mandatory jail sentence for speeding. You drive to fast, you go to jail for a day. But that seems a bit harsh, so maybe we stick with the fine, but make it so that it also hurts people who make a lot of money.

Re: U.S. Files Criminal Charges Against Theranos’s Elizabeth Holmes, Ramesh Balwani

#385

Post by galvin » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 8:55 AM UTC

briandear wrote: post #368

loeg wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or a percent of wealth. Although that isn't really effective punishment for people who blow all their income and don't save anyway.

So should jail sentences be done the same way? If I am in jail 10 days, I lose a hell of a lot more money than some bum spending the same 10 days. So the cost of jail is much greater to me on a per day basis. This “based on wealth” concept is fine, assuming that also applies to jail sentences. We can’t expect an egalitarian scheme for fines if we neglect the same consideration for jail. Assuming our goal is inflictin…

The goal is deterrence, not inflicting pain. If speeding fines where set at $3 people would probably just treat them as a cost of traveling. To someone very wealthy current fines may essential be that.

Jail has both the purpose of deterrence and rehabilitation. Since the method is essentially depriving criminals of their time and freedom then wealth has nothing to do with it. Either way it's probably equally painful for a CEO as a factory worker.

As for driving licenses, they are administrative expenses not fines. I assume you already know this so I'm not sure what your point is.

Re: U.S. Files Criminal Charges Against Theranos’s Elizabeth Holmes, Ramesh Balwani

#386

Post by RaceWon » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 8:57 AM UTC

lokedhs wrote: post #342

vincentmarle wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That would solve the reckless behavior and cannot be fixed with money. I knew a rich person once with a drinking problem: he kept losing his license but his solution would be to just hire a private driver the next day.

But from the perspective of wanting drunk drivers off the road, it worked, yes?

IDK if that's true. Consider that a real alcoholic drinks all day long and truly can not control this. Typically they tolerate alcohol better than the rest of us, but still, there also comes a time when they are simply bombed and then they are (really) a huge danger.

A casual partier though or even someone heading out and thinking they will take the chance of driving home and getting there ok, then yes I agree.

Re: U.S. Files Criminal Charges Against Theranos’s Elizabeth Holmes, Ramesh Balwani

#387

Post by lsc » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 9:09 AM UTC

RaceWon wrote: post #382

tluyben2 wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Losing your license is a major deterrent as well: as someone who finds driving a waste of time I cannot understand why rich people do it, but they do and they get extremely upset if that privilege is taken away. So 3 times and you lose your license for life? That would solve the reckless behavior and cannot be fixed with money. Ofcourse for less well off people this would be very bad (maybe not being able to go to wo…

> I cannot understand why rich people do it This one's mine: Because it's more fun than sex.

I.. must be using my car incorrectly.

Re: U.S. Files Criminal Charges Against Theranos’s Elizabeth Holmes, Ramesh Balwani

#388

Post by Ice_cream_suit » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 9:09 AM UTC

delbel wrote: post #304

Ice_cream_suit wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is pretty far fetched. Using your sketchy rationale, one could claim that you are threatening Paulson and have you charged with a threat to kidnap Paulson to put him in Guantanamo Bay. And in any legal dispute between you and Paulson, you would be incidental roadkill, in view of his deep pockets. That is why the legal system has semi-reasonable heuristics that govern the range of interpretations that are accepta…

Well I don't have the legal authority to do this. The DOJ would have to look into this. I guess people don't remember how it went down. There was an emergency meeting at the whitehouse, I remember Bush and Nancy Peloski, and a few senators. After the meeting, one of them (perhaps a congressman) was interviewed on the whitehouse lawn and basically said that Paulson told them, if they didn't do this, the entire economy…

Zerohedge is mildly entertaining, but is prone to anarcho-syndicalist conspiracy theories.

It is slightly more credible than the Onion.

And Congress-persons are slightly less credible than the Onion.

Re: U.S. Files Criminal Charges Against Theranos’s Elizabeth Holmes, Ramesh Balwani

#389

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 9:17 AM UTC

gaius wrote: post #357

yourapostasy wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...they have false confidence about areas they have zero expertise in, purely because they feel they can figure it out. The antidote to this effect: pick any object around you, and set out to make it yourself from scratch. Or just set out to make the precursors. An object as prosaic as say, a window. A lot of people who suffer from this effect dismissively wave away such a challenge, saying in more words that it's…

An object as prosaic as say, a window I think about this alot, starting from absolutely nothing I doubt I could even make a nail, let alone a screw, let alone a nut and bolt. I have no idea what iron ore looks like in the wild or where to find it. I could probably make charcoal and a furnace... if I had the tools, which I wouldn’t. It’s quite humbling.

[deleted]

Re: U.S. Files Criminal Charges Against Theranos’s Elizabeth Holmes, Ramesh Balwani

#390

Post by lsc » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 9:21 AM UTC

dreamcompiler wrote: post #166

api wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The short answer is her Jobs-like "reality distortion field" -- she was exceedingly good at convincing ... Considering this and the lack of substance behind her claims, I would personally bet money that she is a clinical psychopath. The most disturbing thing I have ever observed about human beings is our tendency to follow psychopaths. Psychopaths seem to have this gravity around them and people just fall into line…

I don't know about Holmes (other than having read Carreyrou's book) but I've been around pathological, charismatic narcissists enough to be as fascinated as you at their ability to lie to the face of very accomplished people and be completely believed. It's almost like executives need a training course in spotting and dealing with them.

my outsiders view of management training is that they work so hard at cultivating confidence that they start thinking that confidence, not competence, is what they need to select for in roles outside of leadership.

As far as I can tell, "leader types" are far more vulnerable to confident people than the rest of us because of this.