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Asian-American admissions at Harvard

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Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#21

Post by fooker »

slantyyz wrote: post #18
cdmckay wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don’t use any standardized testing in Canada and I don’t think it’s affected our higher education system at all. Are there any proven advantages to standardized testing?

That's true for getting into undergraduate programs, but when it comes to graduate programs, dentistry, medical, law schools etc, I believe we still do use the same standardized tests as in the USA.

For grad school, GRE and the other tests exist to filter out obviously unmotivated candidates. So, a good GRE score can not get you in with any certainty, but a bad one can disqualify you.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#22

Post by throwawayjava »

supernova87a wrote: post #2

There was just a story today in the news about the University of Chicago completely doing away with requiring SAT/ACT for admissions. It seems like we're bending over backwards to toss out any kind of test or criterion that could be perceived as discriminatory. With one stated goal to make the student body mirror the general population. But that is a flawed premise. Is it even the role of higher education to remedy t…

> It seems like we're bending over backwards to toss out any kind of test or criterion that could be perceived as discriminatory.

Yes. SAT/ACT scores are terrible signals because of Goodhart's law. Professional tutoring in wealthy suburbs starts at $100/hr. Many ambitious students opt for four-figure private prep courses.

SAT/ACT scores may have been good signals 20 years ago. But today, those scores discriminate against poor students and students aren't inculcated into the "elite institution rat race" from a young age.

That discrimination matters to U Chicago because they are interested in admitting brilliant, creative thinkers. Not perfectly groomed drones. If you don't require test scores, then there's a lot less back-and-forth about admitting that one kid who did publishable research as a high schooler but also happened to do only so-so on the associated SAT subject test.

Qualitative evaluations have many problems, but overly quantitative evaluations also have their failure modes. Especially when the candidate knows the quantitative function they're supposed to be optimizing.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#23

Post by DuskStar »

tzs wrote: post #19
supernova87a wrote: post #2

There was just a story today in the news about the University of Chicago completely doing away with requiring SAT/ACT for admissions. It seems like we're bending over backwards to toss out any kind of test or criterion that could be perceived as discriminatory. With one stated goal to make the student body mirror the general population. But that is a flawed premise. Is it even the role of higher education to remedy t…

There was a fairly long interview on NPR today with the Director of Admissions of University of Chicago on this today. From the part I heard, a big reason given was that you can significantly improve your SAT/ACT scores by taking test prep courses, which reduces the reliability of the test. They believe that can get a better idea of an applicant's academic potential from their grades.

My high school graduating class (~15 of the ~250 were "Valedictorians" thanks to grade inflation and a lack of a weighting system; they all had 4.0s) says differently. This was in an inner city public school, mind you.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#24

Post by forapurpose »

supernova87a wrote: post #2

There was just a story today in the news about the University of Chicago completely doing away with requiring SAT/ACT for admissions. It seems like we're bending over backwards to toss out any kind of test or criterion that could be perceived as discriminatory. With one stated goal to make the student body mirror the general population. But that is a flawed premise. Is it even the role of higher education to remedy t…

> could be perceived as discriminatory

I believe "could be perceived" is incorrect; there is a large amount of evidence that it is discriminatory, and that therefore the most deserving students aren't getting opportunities and that the university is shortchanging itself on the quality of its student body.

> one stated goal to make the student body mirror the general population

Who stated that? Also, it's not a bad guide given that talent is distributed relatively equally.

> Is it even the role of higher education to remedy the cards that have already been dealt, and even if so what evidence is there that it actually does what people say it does?

What do you think, and more importantly to fellow users, on what is it based? Shall we stand still until nobody raises another question?

> It seems like ...

Sentences that begin with those words can end in almost any way the author wishes, and in almost all cases we will have learned nothing.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#25

Post by doubleunplussed »

rdtsc wrote: post #15

The linked report (exhibit A) is interesting to read: http://samv91khoyt2i553a2t1s05i-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-c... It would seem at first that Harvard wants to help poor students and race just happens to be a proxy for socioeconomic status, but it turns out that's not what they are doing: > Harvard’s preferential treatment of African-American and Hispanic applicants is not the result of efforts to achieve socioeco…

Yep. Affirmative action has biases of its own, should be blinded to prevent it. Let it be based on family income only.

In Australia university admissions are based pretty much solely on one number [1] that represents your high school results (unless you didn't go to high school in Australia), plus bonus points if you are disadvantaged (for which race is not relevant unless you are an indigenous Australian or Torres Strait islander).

No interviews, no essays, just high school results plus some data on disadvantage. And handled by a separate organisation, not by the university.

It seems like a pretty good system. Loads of disadvantaged people coming through my university all the time (...I've been here far too long).

Perhaps hard to implement in the US since there is no national high school curriculum and the country is large and diverse making implementing one difficult.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Tertiary_Admission_...

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#27

Post by [deleted] »

DuskStar wrote: post #23
tzs wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a fairly long interview on NPR today with the Director of Admissions of University of Chicago on this today. From the part I heard, a big reason given was that you can significantly improve your SAT/ACT scores by taking test prep courses, which reduces the reliability of the test. They believe that can get a better idea of an applicant's academic potential from their grades.

My high school graduating class (~15 of the ~250 were "Valedictorians" thanks to grade inflation and a lack of a weighting system; they all had 4.0s) says differently. This was in an inner city public school, mind you.

[deleted]

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#28

Post by hammock »

DuskStar wrote: post #23
tzs wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a fairly long interview on NPR today with the Director of Admissions of University of Chicago on this today. From the part I heard, a big reason given was that you can significantly improve your SAT/ACT scores by taking test prep courses, which reduces the reliability of the test. They believe that can get a better idea of an applicant's academic potential from their grades.

My high school graduating class (~15 of the ~250 were "Valedictorians" thanks to grade inflation and a lack of a weighting system; they all had 4.0s) says differently. This was in an inner city public school, mind you.

Admissions officers know individual high schools, and the different grading systems. They can separate the bullshit for the most part

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#30

Post by [deleted] »

DuskStar wrote: post #23
tzs wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a fairly long interview on NPR today with the Director of Admissions of University of Chicago on this today. From the part I heard, a big reason given was that you can significantly improve your SAT/ACT scores by taking test prep courses, which reduces the reliability of the test. They believe that can get a better idea of an applicant's academic potential from their grades.

My high school graduating class (~15 of the ~250 were "Valedictorians" thanks to grade inflation and a lack of a weighting system; they all had 4.0s) says differently. This was in an inner city public school, mind you.

[deleted]
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