Asian-American admissions at Harvard • Hacker News Board

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#11

Post by throw1471 » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 5:23 AM UTC

If Harvard admission criteria leave out the best applicants to other colleges, and they go on to create powerful companies like Google in large number, will Harvard’s prestige decrease despite continued support from the elites?

Doing very well in tech entrepreneurship needs intelligence more than great personality and political connections (they should be above a level but you don’t need a very high level of them).

Politics is still the most direct route to power but billionaires are also powerful and have longer influence. If next generation moguls are educated elsewhere, the colleges with more merit based criteria can emerge as more elite. By merit, the criteria may include other objectively useful metrics in addition to academics.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#12

Post by dontbenaive » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 5:23 AM UTC

cdmckay wrote: post #8

supernova87a wrote: post #2

There was just a story today in the news about the University of Chicago completely doing away with requiring SAT/ACT for admissions. It seems like we're bending over backwards to toss out any kind of test or criterion that could be perceived as discriminatory. With one stated goal to make the student body mirror the general population. But that is a flawed premise. Is it even the role of higher education to remedy t…

We don’t use any standardized testing in Canada and I don’t think it’s affected our higher education system at all. Are there any proven advantages to standardized testing?

It gives smart troubled kids in terrible schools a chance to show that they are talented and in a bad situation.

Instead of just selecting for the agreeable popular kids who can get recommendation letters.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#13

Post by tyrust » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 5:25 AM UTC

supernova87a wrote: post #2

There was just a story today in the news about the University of Chicago completely doing away with requiring SAT/ACT for admissions. It seems like we're bending over backwards to toss out any kind of test or criterion that could be perceived as discriminatory. With one stated goal to make the student body mirror the general population. But that is a flawed premise. Is it even the role of higher education to remedy t…

Your comment and questions are only related to the post as far as they both concern higher education. From your phrasing it's clear what you think the answer to your questions are.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#14

Post by throwawayjava » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 5:32 AM UTC

tomdell wrote: post #10

toasterlovin wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To say nothing of the logical contortions required to argue that modern standardized tests discriminates based on ancestry or skin color.

That is not the argument. Tests are written by people who talk a certain way, in a way that is easier to process for people who talk the same way. Different communities use different language, and this is reflected in how quickly different students process the problems on standardized tests. There's also the issue that standardized test scores are higher for students who have the time and encouragement to study for t…

The diversity thing is mostly a red-herring. Admissions offers are abandoning standardized tests because of Goodhart's Law.

> for students who have the time and encouragement to study for them

It's not just time and encouragement. SAT/ACT prep is serious industry. $100+/hr tutoring sessions. Owners of good SAT prep businesses can make six or seven figures in a few months.

And good prep courses really do work. Tests, like coding interviews, are a game you can hack with enough time and effort.

The signal is totally washed out; with enough money, you can learn how to take the test well enough.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#15

Post by rdtsc » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 5:34 AM UTC

The linked report (exhibit A) is interesting to read:

http://samv91khoyt2i553a2t1s05i-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-c...

It would seem at first that Harvard wants to help poor students and race just happens to be a proxy for socioeconomic status, but it turns out that's not what they are doing:

> Harvard’s preferential treatment of African-American and Hispanic applicants is not the result of efforts to achieve socioeconomic diversity. Rather, preferences for African Americans and Hispanics are significantly smaller if the applicant is economically disadvantaged.

It seems they want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to appear diverse based on physical features. So if someone takes a picture of the class and publishes it everyone would say "Look how diverse they are". But they also don't want poor students because they want donations to keep streaming in.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#16

Post by forapurpose » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 5:37 AM UTC

Almost all discussion of racism is not about the facts of discrimination, it's about politics of the 'culture war', including here on HN:

1. Consider whether you can predict with high accuracy a person's attitude toward a racial discrimination issue, while being blind to that issue's facts, based solely on the political beliefs of the person and on the race of the alleged victim. (You can do the same with politicians and, very sadly, with U.S. Supreme Court justices.) For example, I had no doubt what the parent article's position would be based on the publication's politics and the race of the alleged victims.

2. In the U.S., by far the most prevalent amount of discrimination historically and currently has been against African-Americans. Yet I can't remember the last time such an issue was on the front page. To a degree, that could be for lack of novelty, but that doesn't nearly explain the vast omission.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#17

Post by fiblye » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 5:38 AM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #7

toasterlovin wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To say nothing of the logical contortions required to argue that modern standardized tests discriminates based on ancestry or skin color.

They clearly do. The most explicit example is that ancestry correlates with whether you are a native speaker of the dialect the test was written in.

>The most explicit example is that ancestry correlates with whether you are a native speaker of the dialect the test was written in.

What kind of absurd "argument" is this? If you're testing for a university in America, the expectation is that not only will the test be in English, but the vast bulk of your university courses. And Asian Americans, despite a large number coming from families of non-English speakers, still do disproportionately well. But if the local language is something you struggle with, that local university isn't for you, unless we're also going to argue that degree awarding requires lower standards.

In which case, just throw university in the dump because it's worthless.

If we're at a point where having a majority language and doing important business in that language is bordering on discrimination, this society is lost.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#18

Post by slantyyz » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 5:38 AM UTC

cdmckay wrote: post #8

supernova87a wrote: post #2

There was just a story today in the news about the University of Chicago completely doing away with requiring SAT/ACT for admissions. It seems like we're bending over backwards to toss out any kind of test or criterion that could be perceived as discriminatory. With one stated goal to make the student body mirror the general population. But that is a flawed premise. Is it even the role of higher education to remedy t…

We don’t use any standardized testing in Canada and I don’t think it’s affected our higher education system at all. Are there any proven advantages to standardized testing?

That's true for getting into undergraduate programs, but when it comes to graduate programs, dentistry, medical, law schools etc, I believe we still do use the same standardized tests as in the USA.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#19

Post by tzs » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 5:40 AM UTC

supernova87a wrote: post #2

There was just a story today in the news about the University of Chicago completely doing away with requiring SAT/ACT for admissions. It seems like we're bending over backwards to toss out any kind of test or criterion that could be perceived as discriminatory. With one stated goal to make the student body mirror the general population. But that is a flawed premise. Is it even the role of higher education to remedy t…

There was a fairly long interview on NPR today with the Director of Admissions of University of Chicago on this today.

From the part I heard, a big reason given was that you can significantly improve your SAT/ACT scores by taking test prep courses, which reduces the reliability of the test. They believe that can get a better idea of an applicant's academic potential from their grades.

Re: Asian-American admissions at Harvard

#20

Post by learc83 » Sat, Jun 16, 2018, 5:46 AM UTC

fiblye wrote: post #17

learc83 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They clearly do. The most explicit example is that ancestry correlates with whether you are a native speaker of the dialect the test was written in.

>The most explicit example is that ancestry correlates with whether you are a native speaker of the dialect the test was written in. What kind of absurd "argument" is this? If you're testing for a university in America, the expectation is that not only will the test be in English, but the vast bulk of your university courses. And Asian Americans, despite a large number coming from families of non-English speakers, st…

So you disagree with the assertion that native speakers of a specific dialect score higher than non-native speakers of that dialect--all else being equal?

Or did you just decide you'd rather argue with something I didn't write?