Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Why isn't Plan9 popular?

news.ycombinator.com

11–20 of 83 posts

Re: Ask HN: Why isn't Plan9 popular?

#11
post #3

"Plan 9 failed simply because it fell short of being a compelling enough improvement on Unix to displace its ancestor. Compared to Plan 9, Unix creaks and clanks and has obvious rust spots, but it gets the job done well enough to hold its position. There is a lesson here for ambitious system architects: the most dangerous enemy of a better solution is an existing codebase that is just good enough." - Eric S. Raymond…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Why isn't Plan9 popular?

#12
Same reason the Hurd never materialized. Linux was good enough that nobody cared to put in the massive effort required to make the slightly better solution industry-strength. It's something like the death by a thousand cuts, only in this case, the thousand cuts are unsupported hardware and silly programs that don't have ports or package maintainers, but that people still want anyway. BSD gets away with being the unpopular but probably better alternative to Linux by a massive effort to port all linux software to it, and a great linux compatibility layer for things that aren't ported.

Re: Ask HN: Why isn't Plan9 popular?

#14
post #3

"Plan 9 failed simply because it fell short of being a compelling enough improvement on Unix to displace its ancestor. Compared to Plan 9, Unix creaks and clanks and has obvious rust spots, but it gets the job done well enough to hold its position. There is a lesson here for ambitious system architects: the most dangerous enemy of a better solution is an existing codebase that is just good enough." - Eric S. Raymond…

Ya, I had never heard of Plan 9 until I started doing graduate work, and then one in ten papers somehow referenced plan 9, and almost every single operating system paper references it some how.

Re: Ask HN: Why isn't Plan9 popular?

#15
(In my opinion) Here's a bunch of reasons why Plan9 isn't popular, and then a reason or two why something like it likely will be before too long:

The first obvious answer (also mentioned in other comments) is because "Systems Software Research is Irrelevant". See Rob Pike's paper by that name: http://herpolhode.com/rob/utah2000.pdf

To the reasons Pike offers there, I'll add:

1. The companies that owned the software had poor strategies for encouraging widespread adoption, if that was even ever their goal.

2. The first dot-com boom ca 2000 greatly expanded the IT / programmer workforce and (I claim) significantly dumbed it down. The advantages of a new operating system lack economic impact until a huge number of programmers are trained to use those advantages. We have huge sunk costs invested in maintaining a huge supply of mostly weakly skilled programmers and admins, a sort unlikely to adapt to and adopt a new OS.

3. In a related way, the sectors that could in principle drive something like Plan 9 adoption are heavily invested, by now, in massive amounts of bloatware that, dysfunctional as it is, is both critical and non-portable.

4. Modern hardware is fast enough that fairly high level programming languages and environments tend to dominate. These often include a "least common denominator" view OS capabilities so that programs port easily among Windows, Linux, Unix, MacOS, etc. This hurts demand for OS features other than the "least common denominator".

-----------------

Why it might get better:

Notice that none of the reasons listed above apply to a market niche like "the OS for Google's clusters" or, say, massive clusters providing an SQL-based RDMS.

On clusters like that:

1) You don't need a mass audience of buyers for a new OS. One or a few big customers will be plenty.

2) You don't care about hordes of cheap, weakly skilled programmers. Paying experts is peanuts compared to your hardware, power, and real estate costs.

3) You're not tied to bloatware. You need only run a few things very, very well.

4) You don't need to do "least common denominator" programming and, in fact, any new OS feature that can save you some $s per server-hour is potentially a huge win.

My betting money is that Pike et al. will produce YANOS (yet another new OS), quite possibly mostly written in the Go programming language, really well suited for huge compute clusters.

Re: Ask HN: Why isn't Plan9 popular?

#16
post #5

IMO Plan 9 didn't gain critical mass because Unix is still "good enough". It's also very difficult to keep current with hardware drivers for a niche OS. However, there are some things that came from Plan 9 that are very much mainstream, the most notable being UTF-8 which was invented by Ken Thompson and first implemented on Plan 9. Linux's clone(2) system call is obviously inspired by Plan 9's rfork. And one could ar…

Speaking of Plan 9 and Go, I have to ask the same question: why isn't Go more popular?

Not substantially performant for use in systems programming.

Not substantially powerful or enough libraries for use in web dev (yet, this could change).

Global GC (inappropriate for the niche it's ostensibly targeting).

Overly opinionated about concurrency. (C++ and Java are the gold-standard for library-centric concurrency methodologies)

Go sits in an uncanny valley.

Re: Ask HN: Why isn't Plan9 popular?

#17
I earlier posted reasons why (IMO) Plan9 "failed" but will likely (in a new form) succeed on big compute clusters.

The other possible place for a big breakthrough is mobile. For example, if all of your "apps" are in Java and those apps hardly ever touch traditional unix system calls, it is easy to knock a Linux or Windows OS out from the bottom of the stack.

Re: Ask HN: Why isn't Plan9 popular?

#19
post #5

IMO Plan 9 didn't gain critical mass because Unix is still "good enough". It's also very difficult to keep current with hardware drivers for a niche OS. However, there are some things that came from Plan 9 that are very much mainstream, the most notable being UTF-8 which was invented by Ken Thompson and first implemented on Plan 9. Linux's clone(2) system call is obviously inspired by Plan 9's rfork. And one could ar…

Speaking of Plan 9 and Go, I have to ask the same question: why isn't Go more popular?

It has only been out since November 2009, and it wasn't considered ready for production then. Maybe it is now, but it definitely hasn't had much time to be establish a large user base.

Re: Ask HN: Why isn't Plan9 popular?

#20
post #7
post #2

They open sourced it too late for it to get much traction, I think. Also, does it solve any particular problem in such a way that it can't be ignored? Doesn't seem like it to me.

There were the problems with the license for some years. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/plan-nine.html Once it became "free" it had too little functionality. There's too little of the software and it's not so easy to port the existing Unix/Linux software: http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/porting_alien_software... Moreover, very, very little of the hardware is supported.

Yeah, it wasn't open source. Edit: wikipedia says it was only open sourced in 2002.

Incidentally, the 'crossing the chasm' approach would be to find some niche where a new OS could succeed - perhaps something where the network effects were less pernicious.

Post reply on HN