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Ask HN: Are mobile phones on a plane taking off or landing really dangerous?

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Re: Ask HN: Are mobile phones on a plane taking off or landing really dangerous?

#91
I flew for the airlines.

The problem is not your everyday takeoff and landing. The problem arises when the weather deteriorates to near zero visibility and the crew is relying on instrumentation to find that strip of pavement, at 130 knots.

Instrument approaches rely on a narrowing volume of radio signals, the closer one is to the runway. The tighter the signal, therefore, the greater the deviation should something go wrong. Think of threading a string through a funnel, if you touch the edges, you lose. Now do it on a trampoline while someone else jumps on it. I assume we can all agree that wildly porpoising a 200k lb jet, 400 from the ground, chasing a signal, is not a good idea.

Vehicles on the ground are prevented from encroaching on the approach signal area, when aircraft are shooting approaches in reduced visibility conditions, to prevent them for interrupting the signal. In the cockpit you can see your signals fluctuate if someone does cross that threshold. It happens.

When visibility is good, it is a non event but when you can't see jack, having your guidance just start dancing around, gives one moments of pause.

The phones do interfere in some manner. TO what degree, I can't say. I have forgotten to turn my phone off before takeoff and get the annoying beep in the headset when we descend into an area with coverage, so something is going on.

The reason they ask you to turn it off is because they can't tell you its okay, because they haven't tested it. They can't say, well turn it off if it's cloudy or if the bases are below 300'. Some departures and arrivals require precise navigation, even in good weather, for traffic flow reasons. Missing a fix on departure or arrival could cause traffic alerts or aircraft deviations.

All rules exist for the worst possible scenario. Not the milk run. But how do you explain that to the traveling masses? You should be more concerned with the fact those little dixie cup oxygen masks they instruct you to put on in the event of a decompression, won't actually supply you with oxygen when the shit hits the fan at altitude. It's a partial pressure thing.

That's just between you and me...

Edit: At the end of the day, it is the law. If the crew is having a bad day and has a stick up their ass, they can make your day a lot worse. You need to ask yourself, does ignoring the rule, no matter how inane you think it is, really make a body cavity search worth checking the latest XKCD update?

Re: Ask HN: Are mobile phones on a plane taking off or landing really dangerous?

#92
post #74
post #62

The plural of anecdote is not data, but stories are fun. Last Christmas, I was on a multi-hop flight back to SF from the east coast. We were going to be landing in Vegas, and I was talking to a flight attendant. She mentions that conditions in Vegas were a little crazy, as the runway doesn't drain properly and crosswinds are common. As we're preparing to land, the captain gives the usual speech. It's going to be a li…

Did it turn out that anyone actually had his phone on?

How do you imagine they would find that out?

Probably the problem was that during approach pilots had the usual GSM buzz in their headphones while trying to communicate with ATC.

Do you really want your pilots not to hear ATC instructions on take-off, landing or taxi? Like not hearing landing clearance, or which runway exit to use, or what other traffic to lookout for.

Do you even know what was the main cause of the deadliest air disaster (583 dead)? That's right, not hearing ATC instructions.

Re: Ask HN: Are mobile phones on a plane taking off or landing really dangerous?

#93
post #86
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not farmville but I enjoy reading on my phone, RSS feeds, kindle books, Instapaper. etc. Short flights espeically in the EU e.g. 1.5 hours to Amsterdam on the weekend in great time to catchup on reading. Missing the takeoff and landing cuts about 30 minutes of reading time. It sounds selfish and there is enough evidence here that I am now happy to just turn my phone off, maybe I will just print off some of my Instapa…

There are offline RSS readers, Kindle apps and Instapaper saves can be exported to various formats.

It is all offline, I only read in airplane mode on the phone, I use high contrast mode with medium brightness on the Instapaper app so don't think I really annoy everyone else, but you do get told to turn the phone off even if it is in airplane mode (thus no signal in our out) for takeoff and landing.

I just need to go to super offline mode and print stuff out!

Re: Ask HN: Are mobile phones on a plane taking off or landing really dangerous?

#95
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like GPS for landing is poor dependency, considering how easy it is to jam GPS...

That's why RNAV (GPS) approaches are still not allowed (for commercial flights) AFAIK. 30 degree error has nothing to do with GPS though. Probably DVD player interfered with Localizer signal.

Could be a magnetometer too -- they are very touchy. Although you'd think it would be far away from the passengers.

Re: Ask HN: Are mobile phones on a plane taking off or landing really dangerous?

#96
post #4

There's a pretty robust wikipedia article about this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phones_on_aircraft

"The cost of an accident, should one occur, could be extremely high in terms of human life and the risk is completely avoidable in that no one absolutely needs to use their mobile phone in flight." compare it to: "The cost of an accident, should one occur, could be extremely high in terms of human life and the risk is completely avoidable in that no one absolutely needs to eat meat to survive, they can eat vegetables…

That's a weak analogy. More like "The cost of an accident, should one occur, could be extremely high in terms of human life and the risk is completely avoidable in that no one absolutely needs to eat meat in flight, they can eat vegetables."

If that was scientifically plausible, I'd be happy to eat my broccoli in flight.

Re: Ask HN: Are mobile phones on a plane taking off or landing really dangerous?

#97
post #92
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did it turn out that anyone actually had his phone on?

How do you imagine they would find that out? Probably the problem was that during approach pilots had the usual GSM buzz in their headphones while trying to communicate with ATC. Do you really want your pilots not to hear ATC instructions on take-off, landing or taxi? Like not hearing landing clearance, or which runway exit to use, or what other traffic to lookout for. Do you even know what was the main cause of the…

I thought that they did hear the ATC instructions but they were misunderstood.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster#Proba...

Re: Ask HN: Are mobile phones on a plane taking off or landing really dangerous?

#98
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider this: you're on an eight hours long flight and you need to make a really urgent call. There are no technical reasons why you wouldn't be able to do so, but it is forbidden because some people would abuse it and wouldn't be considerate to other passangers. It's not the phone that should be banned, it's being an inconsiderate prick that should be disallowed.

Need to make a short urgent call? Get up, go to the bathroom (which is conveniently sized like a phone booth), make your call, take a piss while you're at it, go back to your seat.

How long before there are signal detectors in the toilets alongside the smoke detectors?

Re: Ask HN: Are mobile phones on a plane taking off or landing really dangerous?

#99
post #47

Two things: 1. Using a mobile phone isn't generally dangerous providing everything else on the plane works fine and nothing would be interfered with if it wasn't. 2. Cell handovers at 30,000ft with an air speed around 500mph are really, really hard. The reasons for turning your phone off during takeoff and landing are wide and varied, but the long and short of it is that it effectively counts as security theatre. Tak…

Since most phones are CDMA now I think the dangers of interference are much much lower. I have always suspected that carriers help promote this myth to reduce network overhead from point 2 above.

I'm fairly sure most phones are GSM.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_mobile_phone_stan...

Re: Ask HN: Are mobile phones on a plane taking off or landing really dangerous?

#100
post #68
post #65

Here is the reason straight from the FAA: "There are still unknowns about the radio signals that portable electronic devices (PEDs) and cell phones give off. These signals, especially in large quantities and emitted over a long time, may unintentionally affect aircraft communications, navigation, flight control and electronic equipment." http://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/news_story.cfm?newsid=62... ie. We don't kno…

How hard could it be to get 500 phones, put them in a plane and dial them all ?

There are more than 500 different kinds of phones.

That's the problem.

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