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For $1B, Elon Musk’s Tunnel to O’Hare Would Be a Miracle

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Re: For $1B, Elon Musk’s Tunnel to O’Hare Would Be a Miracle

#91

Post by sschueller »

apeace wrote: post #74

The idea of having Boring Company pay for the construction and then reap the profits strikes me as a really great idea. When the government pays for construction, the contractors don't have a strong incentive to actually finish the project. They'll keep getting paid no matter how long it runs over or how over-budget it goes. But in this situation, Boring Co won't make any money unless and until they get it up and run…

It is the opposite of a good idea in my opinion.

The reason you don't want to do that is because the private enterprise wants to maximize its profits. There is nothing wrong with that but in order to do so they will cut corners where ever possible and do the absolute minimum for upkeep.

Yes, this happens with poorly managed and financed public projects as well but public infrastructure can and sometimes must operate at a loss.

In fact a lot of public infrastructure does not pay for itself and is subsidized by tax dollars.

Re: For $1B, Elon Musk’s Tunnel to O’Hare Would Be a Miracle

#92

Post by njarboe »

gowld wrote: post #82
njarboe wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The concept of induced demand does not say you can't build your way out of traffic. This idea seems to come up a lot in transportation discussions. Driving a car on a road is not free in either money or time, so when a new road fills up it is because more people are going somewhere they want to go and are pay a cost to do so. Yes, when you build a new road near where there are already traffic jams, the new road gets…

Infinite roads are not an option. If there is more pent-up demand than total possible road capacity, then there will never be enough capacity.

"If there is more pent-up demand than total possible road capacity, then there will never be enough capacity." That is a tautology.

With tunnels you can probably increase capacity by 100 times without going very deep. That would support some kind of crazy Hong Kong level density of people in the whole LA basin. Everyone in the US could live there. After that happens one can worry about this infinity demand potential.

Re: For $1B, Elon Musk’s Tunnel to O’Hare Would Be a Miracle

#93

Post by nickik »

sandworm101 wrote: post #11
FLGMwt wrote: post #3

This is terrible. $25 for 12 minutes from one place in the loop to O'Hare CTA is $2.50 for 37 minutes (the $5 is if you start from O'Hare) This is only benefitting people for whom 25 minutes is worth $20/$22.50. $1bn or whatever absurd cost it comes out to be is much better spent on improving transit for the actual public. Or you know, to stop shutting down schools. EDIT: typo

I was intrigued to learn that Musk wanted to build what is essentially a new take on the subway, but after reading this article am totally against the proposal. This is looking far more like an option for rich people to get away from the poors. Short of private helicopters, this is one of the few cities where the public transit option is faster than taking a limo. Musk wants to correct that imbalance by creating a fa…

If you never have progress for rich people then you will never have much progress at all.

Where will you build a revolutionary first transportation system for the masses? Literally every form of transport started as a luxury.

Re: For $1B, Elon Musk’s Tunnel to O’Hare Would Be a Miracle

#94

Post by ComradeTaco »

nickik wrote: post #89
apeace wrote: post #74

The idea of having Boring Company pay for the construction and then reap the profits strikes me as a really great idea. When the government pays for construction, the contractors don't have a strong incentive to actually finish the project. They'll keep getting paid no matter how long it runs over or how over-budget it goes. But in this situation, Boring Co won't make any money unless and until they get it up and run…

> The idea of having Boring Company pay for the construction and then reap the profits strikes me as a really great idea. We could do what all normal business does for infrastructure. Revolutionary idea. But it is a good idea. Often private mass transportation is illegal. This seems to be a hybrid model, I don't quite understand what this project entails in terms of obligations by both sides. The downsides might be t…

There is also the possibility that a poorly engineered or rushed tunnel could destablize the foundations of structures above.

Re: For $1B, Elon Musk’s Tunnel to O’Hare Would Be a Miracle

#95

Post by kevinmchugh »

ben_w wrote: post #29
bitslayer wrote: post #7

The design is bullshit. People would have their legs crushed as the car descends, and then they would fall into the hole and die.

People are very good at not being crushed by moving things or falling into massive holes. I myself fail to be crushed or fall into a massive hole literally every time I use an elevator. Or go past a building site. Or…

People die pretty regularly when elevator doors open before the car has arrived. Elevator doors that don't open unless a car is there are a major safety feature.

Re: For $1B, Elon Musk’s Tunnel to O’Hare Would Be a Miracle

#96

Post by psychometry »

FLGMwt wrote: post #3

This is terrible. $25 for 12 minutes from one place in the loop to O'Hare CTA is $2.50 for 37 minutes (the $5 is if you start from O'Hare) This is only benefitting people for whom 25 minutes is worth $20/$22.50. $1bn or whatever absurd cost it comes out to be is much better spent on improving transit for the actual public. Or you know, to stop shutting down schools. EDIT: typo

It's well worth it for people who just need to get to the loop. It would be better if the CTA added an express line, but there isn't room on the above-ground tracks.

Re: For $1B, Elon Musk’s Tunnel to O’Hare Would Be a Miracle

#97

Post by paulie_a »

neaden wrote: post #17
bonestamp2 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is only benefitting people for whom 25 minutes is worth $20/$22.50. This is not true for everyone though. Business travelers take cabs between the loop and o'hare. So, $25 is actually faster and cheaper -- so it's a great use of their money! Even if it was more expensive than a cab, most business travelers would happily spend a little more of someone else's (company) money to get there faster.

Cabs get you right to the address you want to go though. This will still have the last mile problem.

Cabs in Chicago also are incredibly terrible with rude drivers. Uber is definitely a better option.

Re: For $1B, Elon Musk’s Tunnel to O’Hare Would Be a Miracle

#98

Post by nickik »

ceejayoz wrote: post #77
ben_w wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are very good at not being crushed by moving things or falling into massive holes. I myself fail to be crushed or fall into a massive hole literally every time I use an elevator. Or go past a building site. Or…

The hole illustrated in the Tesla video is horrendously unsafe (almost like a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternoster ), but I'm 100% certain the final product won't look anything like that.

Yeah because this short concept video surly is the final version.

Re: For $1B, Elon Musk’s Tunnel to O’Hare Would Be a Miracle

#99

Post by motohagiography »

bonestamp2 wrote: post #13

> In Toronto, where the subway system doesn’t reach the international airport, a brand-new airport express line has fallen seriously short of ridership expectations, even with its one-way fare of $12.35 The reason this is failing is because of awareness. I travel to Toronto for work 4-5 times every year (for the past 12 years). I heard about this extension being approved a couple years ago and I've never seen a sign…

Part of why I don't use the Toronto UP link is:

- I didn't know it was completed and operating.

- Bulk of residential population is 30-45min+ subway ride from Union Station anyway, might have assumed people travel from their offices.

- If due to a subway delay I miss a flight because I only paid $15 and wanted to save $30, the savings doesn't justify the risk. The independent probabilities of unavoidable delays on each leg of journey add up, where in car there are alternate routes.

- Would consider taking train if it came with flight insurance.

- There is no clear signage at arrivals of where the UP line is, as signage favors limousines, then taxis, then pickup, etc.

- Any signage would need to include scheduling information as walking to train to find it's not running means never going back.

I supported the UP line in principle when they were talking about building it, but can see why their numbers aren't up yet.

Re: For $1B, Elon Musk’s Tunnel to O’Hare Would Be a Miracle

#100

Post by bonestamp2 »

lhorie wrote: post #85
bonestamp2 wrote: post #13

> In Toronto, where the subway system doesn’t reach the international airport, a brand-new airport express line has fallen seriously short of ridership expectations, even with its one-way fare of $12.35 The reason this is failing is because of awareness. I travel to Toronto for work 4-5 times every year (for the past 12 years). I heard about this extension being approved a couple years ago and I've never seen a sign…

> The reason this is failing is because of awareness I don't think so. On google maps, UP is the only option shown when going from union to pearson. The thing is that most people still need to take public transit to get to Union station, so it's not convenient enough for most people. I used to live in Etobicoke where there's an express bus to Kipling station (the closest subway station to the airport). There's also a…

> On google maps, UP is the only option shown when going from union to pearson.

I guess other people must be different, or maybe not since ridership is low, but I don't check google maps unless I'm the driver (renting a car). If I'm planning on taking a cab I won't even open google maps at the airport, so I don't believe that is the right place to count on raising awareness of UP (for out-of-towners at least).

But I do agree with your other point about why people who live in Toronto would rarely use UP... that explains that part of it.

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