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For $1B, Elon Musk’s Tunnel to O’Hare Would Be a Miracle

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Re: For $1B, Elon Musk’s Tunnel to O’Hare Would Be a Miracle

#51

Post by lvh »

gok wrote: post #40
FLGMwt wrote: post #3

This is terrible. $25 for 12 minutes from one place in the loop to O'Hare CTA is $2.50 for 37 minutes (the $5 is if you start from O'Hare) This is only benefitting people for whom 25 minutes is worth $20/$22.50. $1bn or whatever absurd cost it comes out to be is much better spent on improving transit for the actual public. Or you know, to stop shutting down schools. EDIT: typo

It's 37 minutes if you happen to be in the Loop and time the train perfectly. Oh, then it's another 10 minute walk to the gates. Oh and almost none of the Blue Line stations are accessible, so hope you're not in a wheelchair or carrying big bags (who takes luggage to the airport, after all?) Speaking of...where exactly do your bags go on crowded CTA car? I keep hearing this argument about the Blue Line from people wh…

You are comparing the current state of the Blue Line against a proposed system, though. The argument is that you could improve the Blue Line significantly for $1B, and also that there's good reason to believe it's not actually $1B.

(Doesn't have to be the Blue Line! Metra at Jeff Park or whatever with a track to OHare makes a ton of sense too.)

Re: For $1B, Elon Musk’s Tunnel to O’Hare Would Be a Miracle

#52

Post by paulsutter »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #4
FLGMwt wrote: post #3

This is terrible. $25 for 12 minutes from one place in the loop to O'Hare CTA is $2.50 for 37 minutes (the $5 is if you start from O'Hare) This is only benefitting people for whom 25 minutes is worth $20/$22.50. $1bn or whatever absurd cost it comes out to be is much better spent on improving transit for the actual public. Or you know, to stop shutting down schools. EDIT: typo

> This is only benefitting people for whom 25 minutes is worth $20/$22.50 Roads suffer from induced demand [1]. You can't build your way out of traffic. The only solutions are tolls or quotas. In any case, if you can't find anyone willing to pay to use your infrastructure (at a price that recoups the investment), that's a sign you overbuilt. > transit for the actual public Cars going through this tunnel are cars off…

Pods will be transiting these tunnels, not passenger cars

https://www.inverse.com/article/46041-elon-musk-s-tesla-plan...

> The only solutions are tolls or quotas.

Increasing density of traffic is another solution, for example buses or trains. Elon is proposing one more way to increase the density of traffic: up to 30 levels of tunnels (considering surface density of traffic). I don't know that he can achieve it, but I'm thrilled he's trying.

Re: For $1B, Elon Musk’s Tunnel to O’Hare Would Be a Miracle

#53

Post by dsfyu404ed »

ma2rten wrote: post #15
bonestamp2 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is only benefitting people for whom 25 minutes is worth $20/$22.50. This is not true for everyone though. Business travelers take cabs between the loop and o'hare. So, $25 is actually faster and cheaper -- so it's a great use of their money! Even if it was more expensive than a cab, most business travelers would happily spend a little more of someone else's (company) money to get there faster.

It would also benefit everyone else because there would be less congestion.

The severity of congestion at peak demand is governed by what people will tolerate. The duration of congestion is what changes when you change capacity. Even if you doubled the amount of every form of transit overnight the severity of congestion at peak would quickly reach equilibrium at about the same level as before.

Peak demand for transit (road, rail, etc) will always exceed available supply as long as the population of people moving at peak is larger than the instantaneous capacity of your transit system. Adding more capacity will always help the overall situation because it shortens the length of the time the that demand is higher than supply.

It's like how course registration at universities tends to saturate the systems involved. Peak demands will always slow things to a crawl but additional capacity is beneficial because it shortens the time the service is degraded. Adding transit of any type doesn't make rush "hour" suck less, it makes rush hour shorter.

edit:rearranged to more clearly make my point

Re: For $1B, Elon Musk’s Tunnel to O’Hare Would Be a Miracle

#54

Post by skybrian »

From the article: "The Musk 'Loop' would have a capacity of 2,000 passengers per hour in each direction, which is about 60 percent of the Blue Line’s current, mostly-under-capacity average hourly ridership."

So that's good, right? This looks like a situation where a high-capacity line isn't actually needed and one that's lower-capacity but cheaper to build line would save money. So maybe it's appropriate use of a technology that doesn't do what mass transit does?

Re: For $1B, Elon Musk’s Tunnel to O’Hare Would Be a Miracle

#55

Post by bonestamp2 »

neaden wrote: post #17
bonestamp2 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is only benefitting people for whom 25 minutes is worth $20/$22.50. This is not true for everyone though. Business travelers take cabs between the loop and o'hare. So, $25 is actually faster and cheaper -- so it's a great use of their money! Even if it was more expensive than a cab, most business travelers would happily spend a little more of someone else's (company) money to get there faster.

Cabs get you right to the address you want to go though. This will still have the last mile problem.

That is a good point, but they're less reliable during rush hour. I could see people taking this to the loop and then walking to their address if they're close, otherwise grabbing a short cab or uber from there.

Re: For $1B, Elon Musk’s Tunnel to O’Hare Would Be a Miracle

#56

Post by moorhosj »

FLGMwt wrote: post #3

This is terrible. $25 for 12 minutes from one place in the loop to O'Hare CTA is $2.50 for 37 minutes (the $5 is if you start from O'Hare) This is only benefitting people for whom 25 minutes is worth $20/$22.50. $1bn or whatever absurd cost it comes out to be is much better spent on improving transit for the actual public. Or you know, to stop shutting down schools. EDIT: typo

Based on your logic, people wouldn't be taking taxis/uber to the airport. It is both more expensive and takes longer, but people do it all of the time for the comfort and the quiet (which allows them to work).

This is being built for business travelers. Many people fly in and out of Chicago on a Monday-Thursday schedule, they will use this train. All of those people will now be in a separate tunnel and everyone else will have more room on the highway and Blue Line. Sounds like a win to me.

Re: For $1B, Elon Musk’s Tunnel to O’Hare Would Be a Miracle

#57

Post by distances »

nelzya wrote: post #27
FLGMwt wrote: post #3

This is terrible. $25 for 12 minutes from one place in the loop to O'Hare CTA is $2.50 for 37 minutes (the $5 is if you start from O'Hare) This is only benefitting people for whom 25 minutes is worth $20/$22.50. $1bn or whatever absurd cost it comes out to be is much better spent on improving transit for the actual public. Or you know, to stop shutting down schools. EDIT: typo

In reality Blue Line (CTA) is much slower, you have to plan for an hour. It's almost impossible to use with big suitcases, it's the only line that's still using the old cars with dividers in the middle of the door. The airport express trains exist in all major European cities where they replace not public transportation but taxi and limousines providing convenient way to travel.

> The airport express trains exist in all major European cities where they replace not public transportation but taxi and limousines providing convenient way to travel.

Well, not all for sure. Many cities just have their normal city train service extended to the airport. I'd guess the express airport trains are common in countries with privatized rail transport, as that is often one of the most lucrative lines.

Re: For $1B, Elon Musk’s Tunnel to O’Hare Would Be a Miracle

#58

Post by allannienhuis »

skybrian wrote: post #54

From the article: "The Musk 'Loop' would have a capacity of 2,000 passengers per hour in each direction, which is about 60 percent of the Blue Line’s current, mostly-under-capacity average hourly ridership." So that's good, right? This looks like a situation where a high-capacity line isn't actually needed and one that's lower-capacity but cheaper to build line would save money. So maybe it's appropriate use of a tec…

isn't it saying that the loop capacity is 60% of the _current ridership_ of the blue-line? not 60% of an unused maximum. Seems to me the 'loop' would be criticised for being constantly busy & over capacity.

Re: For $1B, Elon Musk’s Tunnel to O’Hare Would Be a Miracle

#59

Post by distances »

twistedpair wrote: post #28
FLGMwt wrote: post #3

This is terrible. $25 for 12 minutes from one place in the loop to O'Hare CTA is $2.50 for 37 minutes (the $5 is if you start from O'Hare) This is only benefitting people for whom 25 minutes is worth $20/$22.50. $1bn or whatever absurd cost it comes out to be is much better spent on improving transit for the actual public. Or you know, to stop shutting down schools. EDIT: typo

How much is it worth not to not miss your flight that you spend hundreds of dollars to book?

The usual way is to just reserve enough time to get to the airport, no?

Re: For $1B, Elon Musk’s Tunnel to O’Hare Would Be a Miracle

#60

Post by RedCrowbar »

perardi wrote: post #45
bonestamp2 wrote: post #13

> In Toronto, where the subway system doesn’t reach the international airport, a brand-new airport express line has fallen seriously short of ridership expectations, even with its one-way fare of $12.35 The reason this is failing is because of awareness. I travel to Toronto for work 4-5 times every year (for the past 12 years). I heard about this extension being approved a couple years ago and I've never seen a sign…

Any good analysis out there as to why the UP Express hasn't done so well? I took it just this week, and it's certainly better than the bus they have to shuttle from the end of the subway line to Pearson.

I don't think it's fair to call UP Express a failure yet. It certainly had a bumpy start, but the ridership seems to have been improving recently [1]

[1] https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/01/how-toronto-t...

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