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Harvard Rated Asian-American Applicants Lower on Personality Traits: Lawsuit

nytimes.com

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Re: Harvard Rated Asian-American Applicants Lower on Personality Traits: Lawsuit

#21

Post by lainga »

pishpash wrote: post #12
poster123 wrote: post #5

There may be racial differences in personality, but it is implausible that as the proportion of Asians in the high-achieving student population rises, their personalities get just worse enough that the fraction of Asian students at Harvard stays about the same. Harvard admits this when it says that what brings the Asian fraction down to 18% is "demographic". Elite universities are often accusing the broader society o…

Institutions like Harvard play the same role for the aristocratic elites as Trump does for his base: keep things more or less the same as the good old days.

How is "accounting for a category called 'demographic,'... [pushing] up African-American and Hispanic numbers, while reducing whites and Asian-Americans" maintaining the "good old days"? Or are these stodgy elites just incompetent bunglers?

Re: Harvard Rated Asian-American Applicants Lower on Personality Traits: Lawsuit

#22

Post by pishpash »

lainga wrote: post #21
pishpash wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Institutions like Harvard play the same role for the aristocratic elites as Trump does for his base: keep things more or less the same as the good old days.

How is "accounting for a category called 'demographic,'... [pushing] up African-American and Hispanic numbers, while reducing whites and Asian-Americans" maintaining the "good old days"? Or are these stodgy elites just incompetent bunglers?

That's just dividing the (small) minority pie between the 'others'. If African American or Hispanic numbers ever threaten to reach those of the Asian horde, you think they'd keep promoting diversity?

Re: Harvard Rated Asian-American Applicants Lower on Personality Traits: Lawsuit

#23

Post by preordained »

ardent_uno wrote: post #2

>"[Harvard] lashed out at the founder of Students for Fair Admissions, Edward Blum, accusing him of using Harvard in an effort to orchestrate a challenge to race-conscious admissions that would go to the Supreme Court." I feel that in 100 years we will look back on quotes like this and shake our heads at institutions like Harvard actually defending "race conscious admissions". Reward people that do well and hold them…

>Reward groups that do well

And what does that mean? Using GPA or standardized test scores as the _only_ criteria? If I have 10 people in the 99th percentile of test scores but I only have 5 seats, do I _really_ think the upper 5 who beat the lower 5 by a handful of points are the "best" fit, or are there other factors that might influence my decision?

To me, these is like taking NFL players only based on their raw sprint and lift stats...yah, it's important...but it's in no way a firm indicator of "best".

Re: Harvard Rated Asian-American Applicants Lower on Personality Traits: Lawsuit

#24

Post by ythn »

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #8
wozniacki wrote: post #6

From the horse's mouth: “We could fill our class twice over with valedictorians,” Harvard President Drew Gilpin Faust told an audience at the Aspen Ideas Festival, sponsored by the Aspen Institute and The Atlantic, on Monday. That means admissions officers rely on intangibles like interesting essays or particularly unusual recommendations to decide who comprises the 5.9 percent of applicants who get in. Faust's top t…

“Make your children interesting,” Faust said, while rubbing her thumb against her index and middle fingers and winking at the audience.

I thought it was funny

Re: Harvard Rated Asian-American Applicants Lower on Personality Traits: Lawsuit

#25

Post by Ar-Curunir »

lainga wrote: post #21
pishpash wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Institutions like Harvard play the same role for the aristocratic elites as Trump does for his base: keep things more or less the same as the good old days.

How is "accounting for a category called 'demographic,'... [pushing] up African-American and Hispanic numbers, while reducing whites and Asian-Americans" maintaining the "good old days"? Or are these stodgy elites just incompetent bunglers?

This was why this holistic admission was introduced in the first place: anti-semitism. Jewish applicants were becoming too good at the existing criteria used for admissions, so these universities switched to more subjective standards that they could use to disqualify these candidates.

Re: Harvard Rated Asian-American Applicants Lower on Personality Traits: Lawsuit

#26

Post by ardent_uno »

wozniacki wrote: post #6

From the horse's mouth: “We could fill our class twice over with valedictorians,” Harvard President Drew Gilpin Faust told an audience at the Aspen Ideas Festival, sponsored by the Aspen Institute and The Atlantic, on Monday. That means admissions officers rely on intangibles like interesting essays or particularly unusual recommendations to decide who comprises the 5.9 percent of applicants who get in. Faust's top t…

Except being a URM (under represented minority) individual is one of the most beneficial factors for admission at elite colleges.

The statistics clearly show this.

Re: Harvard Rated Asian-American Applicants Lower on Personality Traits: Lawsuit

#28

Post by cascom »

Just thinking out loud, but I would posit that high grades/scores and "personality scores" tend to be negatively correlated, regardless of race/or within a particular race (just as i would hazard that academics and athletic achievement are often negatively correlated). e.g. the kids with highest gpa's in a school are often not the most outgoing.

Has anyone tried to control for this?

Re: Harvard Rated Asian-American Applicants Lower on Personality Traits: Lawsuit

#29

Post by ardent_uno »

preordained wrote: post #23
ardent_uno wrote: post #2

>"[Harvard] lashed out at the founder of Students for Fair Admissions, Edward Blum, accusing him of using Harvard in an effort to orchestrate a challenge to race-conscious admissions that would go to the Supreme Court." I feel that in 100 years we will look back on quotes like this and shake our heads at institutions like Harvard actually defending "race conscious admissions". Reward people that do well and hold them…

>Reward groups that do well And what does that mean? Using GPA or standardized test scores as the _only_ criteria? If I have 10 people in the 99th percentile of test scores but I only have 5 seats, do I _really_ think the upper 5 who beat the lower 5 by a handful of points are the "best" fit, or are there other factors that might influence my decision? To me, these is like taking NFL players only based on their raw s…

There are many ways to judge someone aside from "race", whatever race really means anyway. Race should have nothing to do with it. It shouldn't be part of the equation.

That's the point. We don't have to restrict ourselves to test scores and GPA.

Just don't be racist.

Re: Harvard Rated Asian-American Applicants Lower on Personality Traits: Lawsuit

#30

Post by Alex3917 »

poster123 wrote: post #5

There may be racial differences in personality, but it is implausible that as the proportion of Asians in the high-achieving student population rises, their personalities get just worse enough that the fraction of Asian students at Harvard stays about the same. Harvard admits this when it says that what brings the Asian fraction down to 18% is "demographic". Elite universities are often accusing the broader society o…

What always gets lost in this debate though is the fact that grades and SAT scores aren't especially meaningful or important. Given that we've had Asians and Jews freaking out all week and making dogwhistle attacks against blacks/hispanics because of the Stuy admissions issue, the fact that these so-called metrics aren't inherently any better or more fair than a personality test or whatever somehow always gets lost in the mix.

That's not to say that schools should discriminate against Asians, they shouldn't, but people also shouldn't hold up tests and GPA as some sort of beacon of fairness and meritocracy.

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