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USB Type-C is still a mess

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Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#221

Post by camgunz »

reaperducer wrote: post #220
camgunz wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean the first Google result when you lookup 'apple usb-c dongle' [1]. It's $70. [1]: https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MJ1K2AM/A/usb-c-digital-a...

If you're on HN, you should know that Google results are tailored to the person, not the search query. The first Google result I got for the same query was the previously mentioned $19 dongle.

> If you're on HN, you should know that Google results are tailored to the person, not the search query.

Incognito FTW

But they're all overpriced, because they cost $.80 to make. That's the essence of the whole dongle thing, the margins on them are gigantic. It's why Apple's iPhone connectors were proprietary for so long, it's why they're moving away from analog headphone jacks, it's why the MacBook only has one USB-C port. I honestly don't know how this is controversial at all.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#222

Post by outworlder »

AngryData wrote: post #150
tjoff wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the spec a USB 2.0 to USB C cable must have a resistor that tells the USB C end to max deliver 0.5 A. If another resistor is used to signal higher currents using that cable could fry peripherals that follow the USB 2.0 spec. Also, I don't know much about USB 2.0 but I thought we had a whole slew of proprietary solutions for fast charging and all were incompatible with each other. So it was quite messy ev…

You only really need to slow charge when you get near to top or bottom end of the battery's charge. From around 20-80% charge you can charge the fuck out of you shit with no drawbacks, but if you try and push the those limits then you start seeing significant wear.

Anecdote: this is what my Nissan Leaf does. 20 to 80% it charges like a bat out of hell. 0-20 and 80-100 you might as well put a solar calculator to charge it up, takes a long time.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#223

Post by tjoff »

lpmay wrote: post #219
tjoff wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know enough to reason about it myself, but there are plenty of people that claim it has negative effects. And when pressed most people I've encountered that say that any negative effects are negligible reveal that their source have been marketing from the manufacturer. https://www.reddit.com/r/GalaxyS8/comments/7fg4sk/should_i_s... I'm not saying the link above is supposed to be more credible than your post.…

Oh, no doubt heat is also not good for batteries (neither is the cold). I didn't mean to imply it wasn't. However I'm still not sure heat is the first order effect limiting charge rates. If you consider that the charge efficiency of the cell is something around 99%, the total losses at a 1C rate relative to the thermal mass of the cell are pretty negligible ( nominally, around 3.6mW per A of charge current ). I'd wag…

Thanks, I feel there is something missing when translating the stress tests made in that article to consumer peripherals. I get the impression that longevity is greatly sacrificed for short term performance in phones and laptops. But that is just me trying to explain why (my) phones and laptops loose their battery capacity so quickly.

Regarding Tesla supercharging I found this: https://www.teslarati.com/watch-tesla-battery-thermal-manage...

I also heard of issues of other cars (don't remember brand) who can't perform a supercharge - some driving - and then another supercharge because the batteries would overheat (still from the previous supercharge), preventing long trips.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#224

Post by vertexFarm »

theatrus2 wrote: post #55
vertexFarm wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forgive me for sounding extremely ignorant. I know this is not my area of specialty and I admit I'm about to sound stupid. I want to admit this right off the bat. Can't you just hook up the VCC and ground from any USB charging IC to a type-c socket? It's all +5v right? I don't understand why the type of connector dictates how fast a cable should be useful for charging. That seems like it should be up to the simple ga…

Type-C offers charge rates up to 100W, which means the voltage is ramped to 20V. There is an entire protocol to negotiate power delivery (including who charges who) http://www.usb.org/developers/powerdelivery/

Gotcha, I was wondering if the VBUS was dynamic. Thanks for clearing that up for me and linking to the documentation, I appreciate that.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#225

Post by lpmay »

tjoff wrote: post #223
lpmay wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, no doubt heat is also not good for batteries (neither is the cold). I didn't mean to imply it wasn't. However I'm still not sure heat is the first order effect limiting charge rates. If you consider that the charge efficiency of the cell is something around 99%, the total losses at a 1C rate relative to the thermal mass of the cell are pretty negligible ( nominally, around 3.6mW per A of charge current ). I'd wag…

Thanks, I feel there is something missing when translating the stress tests made in that article to consumer peripherals. I get the impression that longevity is greatly sacrificed for short term performance in phones and laptops. But that is just me trying to explain why (my) phones and laptops loose their battery capacity so quickly. Regarding Tesla supercharging I found this: https://www.teslarati.com/watch-tesla-b…

Yea, it's quite possible that something changes at these (scary) high charge rates. Maybe charge efficiency takes a nosedive, or there are some other effects that are non-linear with charge rate. Thanks for the link.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#226

Post by abritinthebay »

pentae wrote: post #147
abritinthebay wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple with their stupid single port is just idiotic. Not really. The entry-grade MacBook is designed to be tiny and portable . One port that does everything fits with this philosophy (makes the laptop thinner and smaller and less complex - yes, it makes a surprisingly large difference). Want more? The MacBook Pro is for you then with 4 ports - all of which, as they are usb-c, are more multi-functional than usb-a (n…

Theres literally nothing preventing them from adding another port on the other side. It was a design decision not a technical limitation - there's plenty of ultralights the same size for a lot less money that have two USB-C's. It's been the single biggest complaint about the product. Calling it an edge case is a massive understatement.

No, it’s literally an edge case. For the target market anyhow.

Also it’s not just “adding another port”. It’s adding all the circuitry, changing the internal routing, changing the logic board, adding at least one more IC... etc.

For what? An edge case.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#227

Post by abritinthebay »

Latteland wrote: post #90
abritinthebay wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple with their stupid single port is just idiotic. Not really. The entry-grade MacBook is designed to be tiny and portable . One port that does everything fits with this philosophy (makes the laptop thinner and smaller and less complex - yes, it makes a surprisingly large difference). Want more? The MacBook Pro is for you then with 4 ports - all of which, as they are usb-c, are more multi-functional than usb-a (n…

Sure, I may be an edge case. But I come to work, I need to plug my laptop into power and my work monitor is a 4k tv, so I need to plug that in. Often I like to close the screen and just that monitor. They could at least put two of them on there.

And this is why socks & hubs exist. Sounds like you have a base station in all but name.

Also there is nothing stopping that 4K TV from supporting both video AND power over USB-C.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#228

Post by chipotle_coyote »

aekotra wrote: post #174
chipotle_coyote wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"All so Apple could sell stupid dongles" I hear this charge a fair amount, but it seems really unlikely that Apple moved to USB-C solely to "sell stupid dongles," for the fairly obvious reason that you don't need to buy your dongles from Apple. USB-C is indeed still a mess, but it's a non-proprietary mess. As far as I know, Apple's 100% USB-C laptops are the first machines Apple has shipped in their history that don'…

> I hear this charge a fair amount, but it seems really unlikely that Apple moved to USB-C solely to "sell stupid dongles," for the fairly obvious reason that you don't need to buy your dongles from Apple. This is classic techy naivety. When Apple marketing looks at what percentage of their customers almost certainly going to buy dongles exclusively from them, what number do you think they come up with? If you're und…

My head in general tells me that people who make arguments that take it for granted that the majority of Apple customers are idiots are not arguing in particularly good faith.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#229

Post by jrockway »

notatoad wrote: post #164
jrockway wrote: post #54

I remember arguing with people when Type-C was new; they told me it would change the world, I told them it would never work. The problem is... they made everything optional, and thus when a user sees a Type-C port, they have no idea what to expect. Will it work with a device that requires Thunderbolt? Will it drive a DisplayPort monitor? Will this charger charge their laptop? Will this charger charge their phone? The…

"it depends" is a fine answer for whether a device supports something. that's how USB-A/B worked. you didn't know if the device supported quick charging, worked at better than USB 1.1 speed, or even if it supported data transfer. there's lots of power-only USB devices. But you at least could make a fair assumption that the cable you were trying to use supported all of that (beyond the rare power-only cables). For me…

Quick charging is a little different. You can take any USB phone and plug it into any USB port and it will try to charge. Maybe slowly, but something will happen. That is not the case with Type-C alternate modes and power delivery. If what you're connected to doesn't support what the device needs, it won't work, and won't tell you why. That is what's annoying. Is it the power adaptor? Is your device dead? Does it not agree on which alternate modes to use? Is the cable incompatible? Nobody knows without a $100 debugging device to sniff out the negotiation packets.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#230

Post by aekotra »

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #228
aekotra wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hear this charge a fair amount, but it seems really unlikely that Apple moved to USB-C solely to "sell stupid dongles," for the fairly obvious reason that you don't need to buy your dongles from Apple. This is classic techy naivety. When Apple marketing looks at what percentage of their customers almost certainly going to buy dongles exclusively from them, what number do you think they come up with? If you're und…

My head in general tells me that people who make arguments that take it for granted that the majority of Apple customers are idiots are not arguing in particularly good faith.

Being unaware does not mean you're an idiot. People who don't care or give a shit about technology or available hardware offerings are not idiots. They just stick with what they think they can rely on. I assume you know that. Now who's arguing in bad faith?
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