Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you concluded, based on these experiences, that the person selling essential oils to cure cancer is as useful as an oncologist you need to examine your thinking.
I didn't conclude that. On the other hand, based on my experience I did conclude that the American healthcare system is designed to favor those who can afford to value their time over their money. It's not much comfort that a doctor has the right knowledge if they're too apathetic, overworked or inexperienced to get results that are any better than essential oils. At least with essential oils I know they won't work i…
The Limits of Expertise
31–40 of 66 posts
Re: The Limits of Expertise
#32This headline speaks for itself: > Ask Your Baby's Permission Before Changing Diaper, > Says Sexual Consent Expert[1] That person is what I would consider the opposite of an expert. [1] http://www.newsweek.com/diaper-ask-baby-permission-changing-...
Wow, that is a crazy headline! I wonder what the article actually says? > “We work with parents from birth...Just about how to set up a culture of consent in their homes. ‘I’m going to change your nappy now, is that OK?’ Of course a baby’s not going to respond ‘yes mum, that’s awesome I’d love to have my nappy changed'. > "But if you leave a space and wait for body language and wait to make eye contact then you’re le…
> This seems ...honestly pretty reasonable and well thought out to me.
As someone who has changed a few diapers in my day, it's one of the most idiotic things I've ever read.
Re: The Limits of Expertise
#33The concentration camps and the Holocaust after World War II burst that crack wide open. Eugenics was held up as a purely rational approach to improving human life, remember. So it's failure was seen as a failure of rationalism and science (it actually wasn't, people were just cutting corners and over-extending their observations in invalid ways). The 20th century continued on like this, people cutting corners and slacking off on scientific rigor, it causing widespread suffering, then that suffering being laid at the feet of science for not stopping it. Thalidomide, leaded gasoline, lead paint, Agent Orange, atomic weapons, failure of centrally planned governance, the list goes on.
Somewhere along the way, the discussion ended. Reason and science lost. It was long enough ago that everything we produce today is produced from a fundamental place that begins with an opposition to intellectualism and proceeds from there. Just try to find a TV show or movie or other creative work that doesn't have anti-intellectualism already accepted as being as evidently true as gravity. You won't be able to do it, at least not in terms of Western media. I've seen a couple movies from India, strangely enough, that actually beg a discussion about it, but it comes across as very strange to a western mind.
Scientists and those who pursue reason are cold, detached, calculating, uncaring, socially awkward, arrogant, etc. They're not what you want your children to grow up to be. So they're certainly not who you want making decisions that govern how you live, what your taxes are spent on, etc. Even our most "science positive" media, science fiction, is nothing but a cavalcade of purportedly reason-driven characters leading people into danger through their hubris, only to be saved at the last moment by a gun-toting musclebound hero who tells the scientist to shut up and 'follows his heart.' That is the core of lay anti-intellectualism. If you want to have friends, a loving family, be connected to your community, be a caring, moral person... you can't guide your life with reason and science. That's the foundational principle. There is some incorrect supposition that love is irrational, that being kind is irrational, that science can't convey value to social utility alongside other types of utility, etc.
The way I see it, this is the biggest problem facing the human species. And it might not even have a solution. It might be a flaw in the idea of civilization. You create a civilization to remove danger from peoples lives. Danger which created the impetus and desperation great enough to abandon intuition and trust reason in the first place. So by civilizing, you guarantee those protected by its umbrella will come to devalue it and distrust it. They will fail to maintain and expand it. Once it begins to fall, most would think there might be reconsideration. I disagree. I think it will simply accelerate the fall. Seeing danger re-assert itself, the response will be to double-down on intuition, that it is the remaining pieces of infrastructure that endanger them and that they haven't gone far enough. Eventually, we revert to the 'default state' of humanity - slogging through the mud, racked with disease, bludgeoning each other to death over whose god is stronger.
Re: The Limits of Expertise
#34> Engineers, surgeons, pilots, all these kinds of ‘trusted’ experts operate in closed systems. Unfortunately, the prosperity of the "traditional medicine" industry is evidence that people don't even trust their surgeons/doctors.
Re: The Limits of Expertise
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, I've absolutely lost trust in doctors and physicians. My wife suffered a minor knee injury while we were trail running last year. She went to a specialist (orthopedic surgeon) who performed an x-ray and told her he couldn't see any damage. He formally diagnosed the problem as chondromalacia patellae ("runner's knee") and sent her on her way with a cortisone shot and a referral to a physical therapy practice. As…
You're really comparing the availability of a fleet minimally skilled servers and a moderately skilled line cooks, to a single medical doctor's appointment?
I am also expressing a complete and utter lack of sympathy for their inability to respect patients' time. A doctor refusing to schedule me in the near term because he knows he can't fit me in is an unfortunate artifact of an inefficient healthcare system. But a doctor who knows this and still tries to fit me in - just so he can make me waste the better part of a morning waiting for an "appointment" and not even sit down when he finally does make it to see me - is entirely responsible for wasting my time.
This is a market for lemons.
Re: The Limits of Expertise
#36> Nobody says, “I want someone unqualified to be my president, therefore I also want someone unqualified to be my surgeon.” Nobody doubts the value of the expertise of an engineer or a pilot. If planes were crashing every other day, you'd better believe people would be doubting pilots. Trust is earned , not owed. And the reason people have trouble trusting our political and economic elites is because they keep crashi…
That's almost a rhetorical question, but... How do you define " crashing the plane " here ? There's only one plane and it's still going. History hasn't ended.
Re: The Limits of Expertise
#37Earlier quoted context omitted.
The executives at Blockbuster had skin in the game, they were experts, they got their asses kicked. Last election the Democrats had skin in the game, they were experts, they got their asses kicked. Recently the institutional Tesla shorts had skin in the game, they are experts, they got their asses kicked. So what does having skin in the game have to do with anything? Not much. I have a feeling you didn't read the art…
> The executives at Blockbuster had skin in the game, they were experts, they got their asses kicked. Last election the Democrats had skin in the game, they were experts, they got their asses kicked. Recently the institutional Tesla shorts had skin in the game, they are experts, they got their asses kicked. So what does having skin in the game have to do with anything? Not much. None of these examples show skin in th…
Re: The Limits of Expertise
#38I'm committing the sin of commenting w/o having read the article yet, so this might be duplicative or orthogonal, but: Without feedback, there is no real expertise. Most experts are in domains w/o feedback, so they are mostly full of shit. Good blog posts exploring this topic a bit: https://infoproc.blogspot.com/2018/05/dominic-cummings-on-fi... (above is a summary/intro to following:) https://dominiccummings.com/201…
A professor writes a children's picture book, about a subject within their field. They are unusually careful about correctness, for they fear the embarrassment of "getting it wrong" in front of their peers. But the book contains an error outside their field, and addressing that, isn't a priority.
So one thing I look for, are the incentives around getting things wrong. It varies at a finer grain than one might expect. Two individuals saying the same tiny thing, may have vastly different associated reputational risks. And an individual's risk, can vary greatly over adjacent subfields and types of claim.
> domains
Imagine a lunch-time party. You overhear an elderly gentleman ask: "So, you are a doctor?" "Yes, of medieval french literature." "Good, I have this question about my digestion...". Did you laugh? Ha! So many people just don't understand how expertise is distributed.
Then across the room, you see a five-year old approaching a group of first-tier astronomy graduate students. She asks them "I have a new set of finger paints! I'm painting space! What color is the Sun? Which paint should I use?". Did you laugh? Ha! How large a group would she need ask, to get even 50-50 odds that they don't all give her the same wrong answer? Silly five-year old - she didn't even ask if any of them had a research focus in spectroscopy! So many people just don't understand how expertise is distributed within the science research community. [From my [1]]
Understanding becomes ramshackle surprisingly rapidly, as you move away from someone's active research focus.
A couple of years back, the PBS News Hour did a "free energy from water in your basement" story. In their later on-air retraction, they seemed defensive. After all, they'd checked the story with, as I fuzzily recall, some "Italian scientists".
I suggest there is widespread misunderstanding about what expertise looks like.
[1] Scientific expertise is not broadly distributed - an underappreciated obstacle to creating better content http://www.clarifyscience.info/part/MHjx6
Re: The Limits of Expertise
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you concluded, based on these experiences, that the person selling essential oils to cure cancer is as useful as an oncologist you need to examine your thinking.
I didn't conclude that. On the other hand, based on my experience I did conclude that the American healthcare system is designed to favor those who can afford to value their time over their money. It's not much comfort that a doctor has the right knowledge if they're too apathetic, overworked or inexperienced to get results that are any better than essential oils. At least with essential oils I know they won't work i…
Re: The Limits of Expertise
#40> Engineers, surgeons, pilots, all these kinds of ‘trusted’ experts operate in closed systems. Unfortunately, the prosperity of the "traditional medicine" industry is evidence that people don't even trust their surgeons/doctors.
Yes, I've absolutely lost trust in doctors and physicians. My wife suffered a minor knee injury while we were trail running last year. She went to a specialist (orthopedic surgeon) who performed an x-ray and told her he couldn't see any damage. He formally diagnosed the problem as chondromalacia patellae ("runner's knee") and sent her on her way with a cortisone shot and a referral to a physical therapy practice. As…
What I think people are skeptical of today is not necessarily expertise, but credentialism and the idea that expertise should supercede other considerations.
For example, there are a ton of unwarranted assumptions being made when when assumes that someone with an MD knows more about a topic than someone without one, or that someone board certified in an area is more qualified than someone not certified in that area, or that people certified in the area are equally skilled. We substitute weak indicators of skill or aptitude for the actual skill or aptitude, as the indicators are perfect when they are far from it.
Credentials like degrees or background should be treated for what they are: imperfect indicators of expertise. But now we have this situation where the experts are given control and monopolies over domains. In the US healthcare system, for example, MDs are given a strong monopoly over care, to the exclusion of other professions, but is this really warranted? Skepticism about academic economists having a strong role in politics are somewhat similar, in that sure, we should pay attention to them, but should they have quite as strong a role as they do?
I worry also about the tone of these discussions. The problem isn't so much with expertise, for example, it's how we use it or overuse it, or grant it monopoly, or imbue it with meaning it doesn't have.
I'm even skeptical of the linked pieces. The injection of mention of genetics in the one article is odd, for example, and to me the arguments reek of bigotry. Overall, their arguments seem to be "well, expertise is unwarranted, except for the fields I'm in, and we all know this expertise derives from my superior genetic endowment in combination with feedback. You'll see."
The problem with the open versus closed system argument is that even in very chaotic, unpredictable domains, there's some level of experience that is worthwhile. In fact, research suggests that one of the problems is that people tend to overestimate their ability to predict; part of the expertise in such domains should be to recognize this. This is legitimate expertise, recognizing the scope of unknown unknowns.
Similarly, it's also important to note that often in such fields, it's not just that things are difficult to predict, it's that we know they are difficult to predict precisely because so many reasonable, sophisticated things have been tried and failed. If anything, this points to the importance of expertise, because it suggests that very reasonable sophisticated ideas can still be wrong. The author likes to point to physics as an example of a closed system, which is ironic, because certain areas of physics are well outside our current level of understanding. Should we then, say reject physics as a domain of legitimate expertise because we don't currently have a good understanding of the nature of time?